soft and program: comp.lang.c++ - 25 new messages in 14 topics

comp.lang.c++
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.c++?hl=en

comp.lang.c++@googlegroups.com

Today's topics:

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Announcing the C++ FAQ (Abridged Edition)
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.c++/t/b93b5f22d966d2fa?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 2 2009 7:20 am
From: gw7rib@aol.com

On 2 Jan, 10:28, Greg Herlihy <gre...@mac.com> wrote:
> One of the benefits for a newsgroup to have a list of Frequently Asked
> Questions (FAQ) and their answers is to discourage individuals from
> posting the same, basic questions that have already been answered in
> the newsgroup umpteen times before.

Part of the problem is that the FAQ is what Douglas Adams calls a
"recipriversexcluson". If the FAQ is working properly, then any
question which is in the FAQ will never be asked, and so should be
taken out of the FAQ on its next update.

== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 2 2009 9:23 am
From: David Connet

"Daniel T." <daniel_t@earthlink.net> wrote in news:daniel_t-
A62F91.09241602012009@earthlink.vsrv-sjc.supernews.net:

> In article
> <5d652814-0a8f-4536-bf1d-7bd35af1a4b2@a29g2000pra.googlegroups.com>,
> Greg Herlihy <greghe@mac.com> wrote:
>> So, I am delighted to present:
>>
>>
>>
>> The List of C++ Frequently Asked Questions (Abridged Edition)
>>
>> copyright 2009 Greg Herlihy [add more legalese here to suit
>> one's taste]
>>
>>
>> Q. My C++ program does not compile, what is the problem?
>>
>> A. You are missing a "typename" in the right spot.
>>
>>
>>
>> Q. Great, adding the "typename" seemed to work. But now I have a a
>> different error when I try to compile. What is wrong this time?
>>
>> A. You are missing a "::template" in the right spot.
>>
>>
>>
>> I think that about covers it. :-)
>
> A question about circular includes MUST be in any FAQ that calls itself
> such.

I guess that would be:
Q: What do I do when header A needs header B, and B needs A?
A: See the FAQ (Abridged Edition).

Dave Connet

== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 2 2009 12:04 pm
From: red floyd

gw7rib@aol.com wrote:
> On 2 Jan, 10:28, Greg Herlihy <gre...@mac.com> wrote:
>> One of the benefits for a newsgroup to have a list of Frequently Asked
>> Questions (FAQ) and their answers is to discourage individuals from
>> posting the same, basic questions that have already been answered in
>> the newsgroup umpteen times before.
>
> Part of the problem is that the FAQ is what Douglas Adams calls a
> "recipriversexcluson". If the FAQ is working properly, then any
> question which is in the FAQ will never be asked, and so should be
> taken out of the FAQ on its next update.

So the FAQ is equivalent to the set of all sets that do not contain
themselves?

==============================================================================
TOPIC: MFC Golmine site updated
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.c++/t/cd8333fd25b20df2?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 2 2009 8:19 am
From: "Jonathan Wood"

"Labyrinth" <enter@exit.here> wrote in message
news:gjl02l$29b$3@news.albasani.net...

>>Ah, a lightweight. Carry on...
>
> Again the buzzowrds and one liners,
> UTTERLY devoid of any meaning?

Just to clarify, there were points of information in my original post in
this thread. But your response to my post had absolutely none! In fact, it
even seemed confused about who said what. So, yes, my response to that
thread did not have anything meaningful.

Some of your comments even suggested you wanted to threaten me. Well, I'm in
Utah bud--and I can take care of myself if you want to come out.

Other than that, if you want to promote your site, I suggest you improve
your skills at handling criticism--of which none initially came from me!
Otherwise, you'll put people off. I'm not interested in retrying your site.
And I'm done with this thread.

Jonathan

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 2 2009 4:21 pm
From: enter@exit.here (Labyrinth)

In article <OO8XoXPbJHA.4664@TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl>, "Jonathan Wood" <jwood@softcircuits.com> wrote:
>"Labyrinth" <enter@exit.here> wrote in message
>news:gjl02l$29b$3@news.albasani.net...
>
>>>Ah, a lightweight. Carry on...
>>
>> Again the buzzowrds and one liners,
>> UTTERLY devoid of any meaning?
>
>Just to clarify, there were points of information in my original post in
>this thread. But your response to my post had absolutely none! In fact, it
>even seemed confused about who said what. So, yes, my response to that
>thread did not have anything meaningful.
>
>Some of your comments even suggested you wanted to threaten me.

Wut?

Are you serious?

>Well, I'm in
>Utah bud--and I can take care of myself if you want to come out.

Well, poor you, if these are the kinds of thoughts you have
in your mind.

I thought you are an expert, but you seem to talk like a bully.

Where's that lits!

>Other than that, if you want to promote your site, I suggest you improve
>your skills at handling criticism--of which none initially came from me!

My friend (:--}), get down to business, willya?
I just have no time to waste on idle chatter, blame,
and especially "threat" related blubber, which is nothing
but loonacy to me.

Do you have the SPECIFIC, point by point issues you wish
to present?

What is the very substance of your claims?

>Otherwise, you'll put people off. I'm not interested in retrying your site.
>And I'm done with this thread.

:--}

You must be da real "expert" then.

Zo, da lits is handy. All it takes is one semicolon.

See ya.
>Jonathan
>

==============================================================================
TOPIC: testsuite to validate POD argument passing between C and C++
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.c++/t/3f7162262fcbaf98?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 2 2009 9:53 am
From: Puppet_Sock

On Jan 1, 1:43 pm, Martin Bonner <martinfro...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
[snips]
> I don't think the OP is confused at all. He is asking for a test
> suite to confirm that the two compilers /are/ compatible. I don't
> know if such a thing exists

A test suite would not be my first choice for determining
if two compilers were compatible in this regard.

Indeed, it wouldn't even be on my list.

Reading the vendor's documentation would be high on my list.
Socks

--
[ See http://www.gotw.ca/resources/clcm.htm for info about ]
[ comp.lang.c++.moderated. First time posters: Do this! ]

==============================================================================
TOPIC: C++ vs. C#
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.c++/t/a7db16921180bbce?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 2 2009 10:09 am
From: Grizlyk

On Dec 21 2008, 12:11 pm, tonytech08 wrote:
>
> On Dec 21, 12:11 am, Ian Collins wrote:
> >
> > how can hardware be standardised?
> > Different requirements have different solutions.
> > Do you want a 125W quad core monster in your toaster?
>
> Now we're talkin!!

Take in account, that you can not write any program, that will be
successfully executed on "125W quad core monster" and on "toaster", at
least there are no useful programs like this.

> On Jan 1, 2009 11:59 pm, Bo Persson wrote:
> >
> > A similar example is C99 which has a typedef int32_t for those
> > platforms where this is possible, and lacks this typedef for platforms
> > where it is not possible. C# only targets platforms where an int32_t
> > type is possible. Does that make it a better language?!

There is no easy way to unify hardware, but in general (undepended
from any language) case, there is a way to be portable and to be
compiled exactly to hardware simultaneously. To do it your program
must not refer to hardware directly, but refer to abstract types from
levels of portabibity, for example:

//exactly 16 bit of memory
typename int_p16
- in systems where CPU can not use the cluster compiler will do slow
runtime workaround
- useful for binary protability between different hardware

//at least 16 bit of memory
typename int_u16
- in systems where CPU can not use the clusters compiler will extend
memory up to nearest CPU block, if there is no the block compiler will
do slow runtime workaround
- useful to keep data range with fast CPU access

//fastest CPU block
typename int
- can be usless type due to overhead or overflow

And so on. While programming, you need to select correct type. The
problem of "only one type to select" can be resolved by object-
oriented methods.

> > Does that make it a better language?!
It is evidently, some even low-level properties of C++ mus be
improved, but this is not easy to do.

grizlyk

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Advance Your Career & Achieve Your IT Career Goals with our Online
TrainingFriday, January 2, 2009 1:17 PM
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.c++/t/db1215cd219626ff?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
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==============================================================================
TOPIC: REQ: Business Development Manager (Work from Home option) $5000@month
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.c++/t/1852331921a9868a?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
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==============================================================================
TOPIC: Why do people still use C instead of C++ ?
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.c++/t/83ec35fb1ade5f05?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 2 2009 11:33 am
From: Matthias Buelow

Lawand wrote:

> Shouldn't C++ have replaced C? even when developing an OS kernel or
> such sensitive software.

Maybe it's because "OS kernel or such sensitive software" is often the
domain of hackers or research programmers, who probably don't have much
love left for something... bulbous... like C++. For business
programming, where managing a team of average, exchangable programmers
is paramount, the situation might be slightly different.

== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 2 2009 12:07 pm
From: Grizlyk

On Dec 26 2008, 1:11 am, Lawand wrote:
>
> why does any programmer on earth still use/learn/
> teach C instead of C++?

But use or learn?

About learn.
People do not know strictly niether C no C++, and are not going to do
it, so people learn something mixed that looks more as subset of C++.
They learn the subset of C++ because of existing functional
(algorithmic) paradigm of programming - C, pascal and C++ support the
paradigm. People do not need C++ or C, they need only implementation
of the paradigm.

This is wrong idea, that anyone can learn object-oriented paradigm
without or befor funcional one.

About use.
What do you mean? People call functions, is it C? Or you are about
libraries? Again, anyone try to force others with concrete library?

Any good thing do no require any vague adverticement. If people select
C library, that means that profit from C++ libraries, that do the
same, does not visible. Probably C++ implementation worse, probably
there is no online help dictionary for their IDE to recollect
interfaces of C++ interfaces, probably something else.

> Shouldn't C++ have replaced C even when developing an OS kernel or
> such sensitive software?

C++ has some "elements of OO paradigm" only and must be redesigned to
support OO properties in effective manner. As alternative way, you can
use right now the considered above subset of C++ for functional
projets.

== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 2 2009 5:08 pm
From: Greg Herlihy

On Dec 25 2008, 2:11 pm, Lawand <lawan...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hello.
>
> AFAIKnew, people used to choose C over C++ as a programming language
> for their projects because it posses better performance and execution
> speed, but after I read this article <a herf="http://unthought.net/c++/
> c_vs_c++.htmle">(C versus C++)</a> I noticed that C++ beats C in
> benchmarking so, why does any programmer on earth still use/learn/
> teach C instead of C++?
>
> Shouldn't C++ have replaced C? even when developing an OS kernel or
> such sensitive software.

The entire premise of the question is, of course, completely false.
There is no such thing as a programmers who writes code in "C". There
do exist, however, a sizable number of C++ programmers who do decide -
for a variety of reasons (including inertia, smug self-righteousness
and -in most cases- simple mental illness) to use only a very limited
subset of the C++ programming language when they program. (For
example, many of these programmers will eschew C++ templates in favor
of preprocessor macros. And yes, despite the wildly implausibility of
this claim, this behavior has been documented in the field). In fact,
many of these afflicted programmers have become so delusional that
they no longer realize that they are programming in C++. Many believe
instead that they are programming in some other language (often, a
made-up programming language they call "C"). And, yes, there is ample
evidence to support this outlandish-sounding claim.

Of course the harm done by these programmers (who refuse to use the
full suite of C++ language) - is enormous. Think of all extra delays,
added bugs, and nightmarish maintenance scenarios that their refusal
directly cause.

Nevertheless, despite the clear incentive to fix this crisis, efforts
to reach this group of afflicted programmers and to provide them with
the help they need, have, by and large, proved unsuccessful. In many
cases, these programmers have had years to construct their defenses.
Often the programmer has entrenched themselves so thoroughly in the
software-writing process of their organization, that any thought of
extrication is simply not feasible..

Nevertheless, there are few small steps that we, as individual, right-
minded C++ programmers, can do to fight this huge problem. Here are a
few practices that every true C++ programmer should adopt immediately
in their day-to-day lives:

* Always correct any mention or reference to a "C" programming
language - immediately and forthrightly. Make it clear to your
audience that the correct term is: "the C++ programming language (or
some subset thereof)" Be sure to use the corrected phrase in its
entirety - do not abbreviate the correction in any way. Remember that
allowing any reference to a "C" programming language to go
unchallenged, only serves to feed the collective delusion.

* Whenever "C" code is discovered in a program, immediately rewrite
the infected program immediately and completely (using proper C++).
Leaving the malignant code as is, greatly increases the risk of
contagion.

* Train yourself to recognize the telltale signs of the C programming
psychosis in other programmers. For example, someone who uses /* */
instead of // to set off comments, or who religiously makes sure that
all declarations precede statements in the same scope, or who use an
overabundant number of preprocessor macros and #defines - is certainly
a peerson who warrants closer scrutiny. Remember, even noticing
something minor can nonetheless prove to be the decisive tip-off that
a fellow C++ programmer desperately needs your help. A note of
caution: once you have identified a sick C++ programmer, do not
confront the individual yourself. Instead, seek out the assistance of
a trained professional, competent in conducting the intervention (and
internment) that will be needed.

So. there you have it. The near term prognosis for ending this crisis
does remain bleak. Our best hope is that we each, on our own, fight
this problem locally, in our day-to-day lives. The hope is that - by
dint of our collective efforts - we will eventually turn the tide and
end this terrible scourge.

Greg

==============================================================================
TOPIC: hjhlklk'l
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.c++/t/8f4e5319af283d86?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 2 2009 11:36 am
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==============================================================================
TOPIC: Question about operator overloads and class template members
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.c++/t/ebcfe587452e5543?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 4 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 2 2009 12:03 pm
From: alephhepe@gmail.com

An error message from gcc leads me to this question:

Can an operator be overloaded for a class template as both a member
function and a friend template function?

In the following code, I declare operator+ to be both a member
function (for int) and a friend template function (for C<T>):

////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
// Forward declarations
template<typename T> struct C;
template<typename T> C<T> operator+(C<T> self, C<T> that);

// Template with operator+ as both a member and friend
template<typename T>
struct C {
C<T> operator+(int) { return C<T>(); }
friend C<T> operator+ <>(C<T> self, C<T> that);
// Above line gives an error: "declaration of operator+ as non-
function"
};

template<typename T>
C<T> operator+(C<T> self, C<T> that) { return C<T>(); }

int main() {
C<char> a, b, c=a+b, d=a+0;
}
////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

Is this supposed to be legal? Maybe it's a parse error in gcc?
(Oddly enough, if I put the friend declaration first, I don't get the
error message.)

== 2 of 4 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 2 2009 2:09 pm
From: Cédric Baudry

On 2 jan, 21:03, alephh...@gmail.com wrote:
> An error message from gcc leads me to this question:
>
> Can an operator be overloaded for a class template as both a member
> function and a friend template function?
>
> In the following code, I declare operator+ to be both a member
> function (for int) and a friend template function (for C<T>):
>
> ////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
> // Forward declarations
> template<typename T> struct C;
> template<typename T> C<T> operator+(C<T> self, C<T> that);
>
> // Template with operator+ as both a member and friend
> template<typename T>
> struct C {
> C<T> operator+(int) { return C<T>(); }
> friend C<T> operator+ <>(C<T> self, C<T> that);
> // Above line gives an error: "declaration of operator+ as non-
> function"
>
> };
>
> template<typename T>
> C<T> operator+(C<T> self, C<T> that) { return C<T>(); }
>
> int main() {
> C<char> a, b, c=a+b, d=a+0;}
>
> ////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
>
> Is this supposed to be legal? Maybe it's a parse error in gcc?
> (Oddly enough, if I put the friend declaration first, I don't get the
> error message.)

It looks Barely legal !

I think I spotted 2 errors in one line
friend C<T> operator+ <>(C<T> self, C<T> that);

You need to remove the <>, well it reminds me of the diamond operator
in Perl. I don't think gcc is much pleased with it.

Anyway, I take away the diamond, add template<typename T> before
friend
and poof, VC++ 2008 built it.

It even executes flawlessly.

However it's gona need real tests to see if it really works.

Tell me how it goes. Cheers.

---

#ifndef FRIEND_OP
#define FRIEND_OP

// Forward declarations
template<typename T> struct C;
template<typename T> C<T> operator+(C<T> self, C<T> that);

// Template with operator+ as both a member and friend
template<typename T>
struct C {
C<T> operator+(int i) { return C<T>(); }
template<typename T> friend C<T> operator+ (C<T> self, C<T>
that);
};

template<typename T>
C<T> operator + ( C<T> self, C<T> that) { return C<T>(); }

soft and program

Friday, January 2, 2009

comp.lang.c++ - 25 new messages in 14 topics - digest

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