soft and program: comp.lang.c++ - 26 new messages in 17 topics

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==============================================================================
TOPIC: template error
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.c++/t/1d7d6b77e8753579?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Wed, Jul 29 2009 11:53 pm
From: SG

On 30 Jul., 08:32, "Alf P. Steinbach" wrote:
>
> But if there's a language lawyer nearby it may be highly provocative.
>
> For the standard (probably through some mishap) only allows specialization of
> 'std' namespace classes, not routines,

Are you sure? Can you quote the standard on that?

If my memory serves me well, Scott Meyers wrote in "Effective C++"
that it is legal to specialize a function template in std::.

Cheers!
SG

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Alternatives to C: ObjectPascal, Eiffel, Ada or Modula-3?
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.c++/t/40783f7f814400c9?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 4 ==
Date: Wed, Jul 29 2009 11:51 pm
From: Georg Bauhaus

fft1976 wrote:
> On Jul 29, 7:48 pm, Paul Rubin <http://phr...@NOSPAM.invalid> wrote:
>> fft1976 <fft1...@gmail.com> writes:
>>>> Where'd you get that idea?
>>> http://shootout.alioth.debian.org/u32/benchmark.php?test=all〈=gna...
>> Given that Ada is such a verbose language, the generally smaller
>> source sizes of the Ada programs suggests that they weren't optimized
>> very carefully. I know that some C, Java, and functional language
>> users treat the shootouts fairly competitively and tune their code
>> carefully, but I don't know if the Ada users are the same way. Ada
>> is unfortunately kind of a niche language these days.
>
> This is a hypotheses you are entertaining, right? Or did you notice
> anything "suboptimal" in the Ada code?

It is true that Ada programs have been ranking lower at the
Shootout than they did before, and the (two) reasons
are interesting.
Some time ago, many algorithms were supposed to use just the
language, and sequential programs, with few excceptions.
Now with Multicore CPUs everywhere, many Shootout programmers
have started to include threading libraries and thus
perform different algorithms, having their programs perform
devide and conquer and such.

(One might wonder whether or not having concurrency support
built into the language will become the great new thing. :-)

Last time I looked, the Ada programs had not been
updated to use Ada's concurrent types to express the same
devide and conquer strategy, which seems to be allowed now...
The reported speedups for some C versions of the programs
can be used as an estimate of a statistical correction
to the (still sequential) Ada performance.
This then will explain why a 2x slowdown of Ada,
when compared to C, is not a realistic estimate.

A second reason why Ada has dropped at the Shootout is
that the systems they use have older interim (from the Ada
point of view) GCCs that are known to be broken.
This makes some perfectly normal Ada programs fail there.
As the code is available and did not fail when it was
first ranked, and does not fail when used with an apt
compiler like GCC 4.3.x, the Shootout is just showing its
information potential ;-)

== 2 of 4 ==
Date: Thurs, Jul 30 2009 12:52 am
From: fft1976

On Jul 29, 11:51 pm, Georg Bauhaus <rm.tsoh.plus-
bug.bauh...@maps.futureapps.de> wrote:
> fft1976 wrote:
> > On Jul 29, 7:48 pm, Paul Rubin <http://phr...@NOSPAM.invalid> wrote:
> >> fft1976 <fft1...@gmail.com> writes:
> >>>> Where'd you get that idea?
> >>>http://shootout.alioth.debian.org/u32/benchmark.php?test=all〈=gna...
> >> Given that Ada is such a verbose language, the generally smaller
> >> source sizes of the Ada programs suggests that they weren't optimized
> >> very carefully. I know that some C, Java, and functional language
> >> users treat the shootouts fairly competitively and tune their code
> >> carefully, but I don't know if the Ada users are the same way. Ada
> >> is unfortunately kind of a niche language these days.
>
> > This is a hypotheses you are entertaining, right? Or did you notice
> > anything "suboptimal" in the Ada code?
>
> It is true that Ada programs have been ranking lower at the
> Shootout than they did before, and the (two) reasons
> are interesting.
> Some time ago, many algorithms were supposed to use just the
> language, and sequential programs, with few excceptions.
> Now with Multicore CPUs everywhere, many Shootout programmers
> have started to include threading libraries and thus
> perform different algorithms, having their programs perform
> devide and conquer and such.
>
> (One might wonder whether or not having concurrency support
> built into the language will become the great new thing. :-)
>
> Last time I looked, the Ada programs had not been
> updated to use Ada's concurrent types to express the same
> devide and conquer strategy, which seems to be allowed now...
> The reported speedups for some C versions of the programs
> can be used as an estimate of a statistical correction
> to the (still sequential) Ada performance.
> This then will explain why a 2x slowdown of Ada,
> when compared to C, is not a realistic estimate.

Try again. The link above is for single-threaded code.

>
> A second reason why Ada has dropped at the Shootout is
> that the systems they use have older interim (from the Ada
> point of view) GCCs that are known to be broken.
> This makes some perfectly normal Ada programs fail there.
> As the code is available and did not fail when it was
> first ranked, and does not fail when used with an apt
> compiler like GCC 4.3.x, the Shootout is just showing its
> information potential ;-)

How would this explain Ada's slow speed? I don't understand you.

== 3 of 4 ==
Date: Thurs, Jul 30 2009 1:34 am
From: Ludovic Brenta

fft1976 wrote:
> Georg Bauhaus wrote:
>> A second reason why Ada has dropped at the Shootout is
>> that the systems they use have older interim (from the Ada
>> point of view) GCCs that are known to be broken.
>> This makes some perfectly normal Ada programs fail there.
>> As the code is available and did not fail when it was
>> first ranked, and does not fail when used with an apt
>> compiler like GCC 4.3.x, the Shootout is just showing its
>> information potential ;-)
>
> How would this explain Ada's slow speed? I don't understand you.

Remember that the Shootout does not compare languages; it compares
compilers (i.e. particular implementations of some languages) combined
with programs (i.e. particular implementations of some algorithms).
So, upgrading the compiler is likely to improve the performance of Ada
programs; similarly, spending time to hand-optimize the programs is
also likely to improve their performance.

--
Ludovic Brenta.

== 4 of 4 ==
Date: Thurs, Jul 30 2009 1:58 am
From: Stephen Horne

Appols. for continuing this off-topic stuff - I hope it isn't too
annoying.

After replying, I got curious, and spent some time looking at the Ada
95 rationale. As a result...

On Thu, 30 Jul 2009 04:58:57 +0100, Stephen Horne
<sh006d3592@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

>The transition from C to Ada 83 is pretty good, especially if (like
>me) you used Pascal and/or Modula 2 before you used C. There are
>run-time costs, but those costs are there for a reason.

There are exceptions to this that I had forgotten about. Access types
(pointers) have quite severe restrictions, for instance - derestricted
somewhat in Ada 95, but the bad-pointer risk-aversion may still be a
touch excessive.

I have no idea what Ada 2005 adds to the mix.

>Basically, you don't have classes, you have tagged types - ie variant
>records - which support inheritance. That isn't a big deal. But you
>don't have methods. You have normal non-member functions/procedures,
>but some parameters can be designated as special 'classwide'
>parameters - parameters that are run-time bound rather than
>compile-time overloaded.
>
>This approach *IS* justifiable, as it supports multiple dispatch. But
>I haven't used this in Ada. By 1998 I had moved on to C++, I only used
>Ada 83 professionally, and I never got very familiar with Ada 95.

Actually, it doesn't support multiple dispatch. The term is used in
documentation, but refers to a coding trick in which a sequence of
single-dispatch calls give the effect of multiple dispatch - an
approach which is sometimes used in C++ and other languages too, but
which has a significant manual coding overhead.

The syntax of Ada 95 would clearly support multiple dispatch, but the
semantics disallow it. Based on what the rationale says, the reason is
basically that there are insufficient features to manage the dispatch
decision specification properly.

My impression is that the Ada 95 syntax (if you simply remove the
semantic restrictions) would allow the same degree of control as the
treecc domain-specific language, though it has been about 18 months
since I used that. So - based on one tool that has apparently found a
niche - those semantic restrictions may have been a mistake.

That said, I wrote my own DSL because I didn't like the restrictions
in treecc, and since Ada 95 takes a different approach to treecc and
my DSL WRT dispatch handling.

Treecc and my DSL use a distinction between what I call the operation
and the variants (different implementations) of that operation. In
implementation terms, and in my DSL, each variant maps to an inline
function containing the code for one case. Each operation maps to a
normal function which evaluates the dispatch decision, then calls the
appropriate variant-function inline. Variants are inline because they
only really exist as a way of getting the environment right (parameter
types etc) for the code fragments. Each variant inline is called from
precisely one location in the operations dispatch handler.

Having this syntactic concept of a variant means I can have special
kinds of variants, including some that have no implementation code at
all. My DSL defines final variants (can't be overridden), noinherit
variants (handles exact match only), block variants (no implementation
- prevent higher level variants from being inherited, thus causing
compile-time errors if lower level cases aren't all covered), fail
variants (no implementation - if the case occurs, throw an exception)
and more.

Ada 95 tagged types support only early binding, but each tagged type
has an associated "classwide" type which is the true
variant-record-like entity, though Ada has a separate mechanism for
standard variant records. A "classwide" type can have the value of the
basis tagged type, or of any descendant tagged type (or any descendant
tagged types classwide type, if I read it correctly).

Passing a classwide type to a normal Ada function doesn't trigger
run-time binding. The function sees the variant-record-style entity.
However, if I read correctly, a call using a classwide type to a
function that has a range of non-classwide tagged-type-accepting
overloads causes dispatch resolution to be done at the call site.

The point here is that the non-classwide tagged-type-accepting
overloads are just normal overloaded functions - they can be called
using early binding too. They aren't variants of an operation, as in
my DSL - they are full functions in their own right. The called
function isn't special - the call is special.

It's interesting but, truth told, disappointing. No true multiple
dispatch, at least in Ada 95 - don't know about Ada 2005.

>One problem with multiple dispatch, however, is that it isn't really
>compatible with separate compilation. A new compilation unit may
>include definitions that affect dispatch decisions in an already
>compiled unit, by overriding some special cases. DSLs such as mine
>handle this by being DSLs - by limiting their scope, basically, and
>leaving larger scale issues to the main language.

This may also be part of why Ada95 doesn't support true multiple
dispatch.

>though the Ada build process is a bit non-conventional
>anyway due to things like having types which are named in a package
>specification, but are only defined privately in the body - a bit
>better hidden than you get in C/C++, and it means that separate
>compilation has what-size-is-that and similar issues.

This is just wrong - my excuse being that it has been more than a
decade since I used Ada. An Ada package specification has a public
part in which a type can be declared as simply 'private', but if so,
the specification must also have a private part at the end which fills
in the detail of that type so that the compiler can work out the
instance size etc.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Can iterator be checked to be at end of vector?
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.c++/t/04f21bec592f548d?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Thurs, Jul 30 2009 12:17 am
From: cornelis van der bent

On 29 jul, 17:44, Victor Bazarov <v.Abaza...@comAcast.net> wrote:
> cornelis van der bent wrote:
>
> > Is there a way to ask a vector<Class*>::iterator if it's at the end of
> > its vector?
>
> No. An iterator does not know who "its" vector is.
>
> > (Background: I know I could compare with myVector.end(), but don't
> > want to do this. I want to pass two iterators to a method and do some
> > side by side comparison until one of the iterators is at the end. I
> > don't want to pass the vectors as well.)
>
> You need to pass the *ends* [as well], not the vectors.
>

Thanks!

Is there a meaningful (not technical) reason why an iterator does not
have this information? You write my "its" between ""; is there
perhaps any clue in why you do this, in how you conceptually see an
iterator and "its" container?

Kees

== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Thurs, Jul 30 2009 1:41 am
From: pjb@informatimago.com (Pascal J. Bourguignon)

cornelis van der bent <kees.van.der.bent@gmail.com> writes:

> On 29 jul, 17:44, Victor Bazarov <v.Abaza...@comAcast.net> wrote:
>> cornelis van der bent wrote:
>>
>> > Is there a way to ask a vector<Class*>::iterator if it's at the end of
>> > its vector?
>>
>> No. An iterator does not know who "its" vector is.
>>
>> > (Background: I know I could compare with myVector.end(), but don't
>> > want to do this. I want to pass two iterators to a method and do some
>> > side by side comparison until one of the iterators is at the end. I
>> > don't want to pass the vectors as well.)
>>
>> You need to pass the *ends* [as well], not the vectors.
>>
>
> Thanks!
>
> Is there a meaningful (not technical) reason why an iterator does not
> have this information? You write my "its" between ""; is there
> perhaps any clue in why you do this, in how you conceptually see an
> iterator and "its" container?

The end could change.

But you could build smarter iterators, that would include both a
reference to the container and the std::iterator, so you could easily
ask this smart iterator if it's at the end.

--
__Pascal Bourguignon__

== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Thurs, Jul 30 2009 1:44 am
From: Juha Nieminen

cornelis van der bent wrote:
> Is there a meaningful (not technical) reason why an iterator does not
> have this information?

I suppose the designers of the language wanted iterators to be as
small as possible and figured that all relevant algorithms could be
implemented without the iterators needing to know the data container
which owns the data they are pointing to, as all the algorithms can be
implemented by making them take iterator pairs (ie. two iterators
specifying a range of values). In fact, most algorithms wouldn't even
benefit from the iterators knowing their parent containers, so this data
would only be useless overhead.

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