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| red floyd <no.spam@its.invalid>: Oct 28 04:45PM -0700 On 10/28/2014 4:04 PM, Öö Tiib wrote: > "ASCII-255" is strange term. What you mean with it? ASCII is character > encoding scheme that encodes 128 characters into 7-bit binary integers. > None of 7 bit binary integers has value 255. I think he means that he'll code blanks in variable names as '\xff' |
| "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com>: Oct 28 04:51PM -0700 On Tuesday, October 28, 2014 7:04:23 PM UTC-4, Öö Tiib wrote: > "ASCII-255" is strange term. What you mean with it? ASCII is character > encoding scheme that encodes 128 characters into 7-bit binary integers. > None of 7 bit binary integers has value 255. People always tell me this whenever I mention upper ASCII characters. It comes from the days of MS-DOS. The ASCII characters were the ones present on video cards. They were a standard character set that provided for certain graphical characters, symbols in other languages, etc. Here's an image showing them: http://www.jimprice.com/ascii-128-255.gif The ASCII-255 character was the same bit pattern as ASCII-0 (NULL) and ASCII-32 (space). But, it is a separate and distinct character that today would probably be referred to as ampersand-nbsp; Best regards, Rick C. Hodgin |
| Martijn Lievaart <m@rtij.nl.invlalid>: Oct 29 01:10AM +0100 On Tue, 28 Oct 2014 16:51:12 -0700, Rick C. Hodgin wrote: > People always tell me this whenever I mention upper ASCII characters. It > comes from the days of MS-DOS. The ASCII characters were the ones > present on video cards. They were a standard character set that No, those aren't ASCII. The first 128 codes are ASCII. The upper 128 are an extension defined by IBM. Aka IBM extended ASCII aka cp437 (http:// en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Code_page_437) M4 |
| "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com>: Oct 28 06:40PM -0700 On Tuesday, October 28, 2014 8:16:02 PM UTC-4, Martijn Lievaart wrote: > No, those aren't ASCII. The first 128 codes are ASCII. The upper 128 are > an extension defined by IBM. Aka IBM extended ASCII aka cp437 (http:// > en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Code_page_437) My mistake. Best regards, Rick C. Hodgin |
| scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal): Oct 29 01:43PM >> an extension defined by IBM. Aka IBM extended ASCII aka cp437 (http:// >> en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Code_page_437) >My mistake. Why do you believe that allowing spaces in a variable name is a good idea? |
| "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com>: Oct 29 07:03AM -0700 On Wednesday, October 29, 2014 9:44:07 AM UTC-4, Scott Lurndal wrote: > Why do you believe that allowing spaces in a variable name is a > good idea? Because we are human beings and we read things in words. The space I would allow is the NBSP character, but I would not make it completely invisible by default (as the actual ASCII-32 space symbol is). Instead, I would allow an editor setting to display a mark there, some type of visible cue, or to leave it blank by user setting. By default, I would put a visible cue in there so it's clear (after one becomes accustomed to the cue) that the colorized portion is connected. I may do this anyway as an always-on feature (regardless of whether or not there is a marked symbol present) using a slightly colorized background color, which is different enough from the normal background color that the eye catches it, but not so different that it's overtly intrusive). By experience, a color delta of about 10% seems to work for these purposes. :-) In terms of a symbol, I think actually the extended-ASCII character 249 or 250 would be very nice for this. It's a tiny 4-pixel (249) or single-pixel (250) dot in the middle of the character bitmap. You can see them on the IBM extended ASCII Code Page 437 Wikipedia page on the bottom row, 5th from the right, directly to the left of the square root symbol: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Code_page_437 http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f8/Codepage-437.png I use that symbol in my kernel debugger in lieu of leading zeros. The character serves as a placeholder in that context, so that we only see the digits of significance in the numbers, and not the white noise of the many leading zeros, allowing us to quickly read the content without intrusion, for the significant numbers are all we really care about generally. See the example here in this video (Use VLC http://www.videolan.org): http://www.visual-freepro.org/videos/2014_02_13__exodus_debi_debugger.ogv Best regards, Rick C. Hodgin |
| Martijn Lievaart <m@rtij.nl.invlalid>: Oct 29 03:12PM +0100 On Wed, 29 Oct 2014 13:43:52 +0000, Scott Lurndal wrote: >>My mistake. > Why do you believe that allowing spaces in a variable name is a good > idea? It isn't, but it is kind of fun, isn't it? :-) M4 |
| "Fred.Zwarts" <F.Zwarts@KVI.nl>: Oct 29 03:21PM +0100 "Rick C. Hodgin" schreef in bericht news:b685a94d-6592-43da-8562-be33ff6d9dad@googlegroups.com... >generally. >See the example here in this video (Use VLC http://www.videolan.org): > http://www.visual-freepro.org/videos/2014_02_13__exodus_debi_debugger.ogv Isn´t it much more simple to use the underscore (_) for such a space? It almost completely matches your description. |
| "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com>: Oct 29 07:29AM -0700 On Wednesday, October 29, 2014 10:04:06 AM UTC-4, Rick C. Hodgin wrote: > By default, I would put a visible cue in there so it's clear (after one > becomes accustomed to the cue) that the colorized portion is connected. I just thought of what may be a better solution. I'll have to do some experimenting. I may make it visible as a half-space character in the GUI and center the variable around the extra pixel space that would otherwise be occupied by the full number of pixels in the name with spaces. That by itself would make it stand out somewhere as it would insert extra space before and after the name. I could then use an optional cue on both sides to indicate the form without question, such as a type of mini (|cask|). Something like this: http://snag.gy/a8SpE.jpg Best regards, Rick C. Hodgin |
| Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com>: Oct 29 10:09AM -0500 On Tue, 28 Oct 2014 16:51:12 -0700 (PDT), "Rick C. Hodgin" >The ASCII-255 character was the same bit pattern as ASCII-0 (NULL) >and ASCII-32 (space). But, it is a separate and distinct character >that today would probably be referred to as ampersand-nbsp; What would motivate you to actually require the old IBM-PC OEM codepage at this point in time? The world has largely moved to Unicode for a reason. And calling the old 0xff character " " is pretty deceiving as well, everyone who sees that is going to thing the Unicode character (which would be code point 0xa0, or in UTF-8: 0xc2, 0xa0). |
| "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com>: Oct 29 08:23AM -0700 > What would motivate you to actually require the old IBM-PC OEM > codepage at this point in time? The world has largely moved to > Unicode for a reason. I wouldn't require it. I would introduce it into my GUI editor as a special bitmap used for this purpose. > And calling the old 0xff character " " is pretty deceiving as > well, everyone who sees that is going to thing the Unicode character > (which would be code point 0xa0, or in UTF-8: 0xc2, 0xa0). Calling this character "NBSP" is not my own device. I took the name after reading about it on this website: http://www.theasciicode.com.ar/extended-ascii-code/non-breaking-space-no-break-space-ascii-code-255.html I appreciate your direction though. In searching through images.google.com just now for the extended ASCII chart, I didn't find any other references to ASCII-255 being known by that name. And it just so happened that the first one I found yesterday was the link above which did call it that. :-) Murphy's Law. Best regards, Rick C. Hodgin |
| scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal): Oct 29 04:04PM >> Why do you believe that allowing spaces in a variable name is a good >> idea? >It isn't, but it is kind of fun, isn't it? :-) As a thought experiment, whose result would invariably be "don't do this", perhaps. Bad enough having them in filenames. |
| "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com>: Oct 29 09:13AM -0700 On Wednesday, October 29, 2014 12:04:15 PM UTC-4, Scott Lurndal wrote: > As a thought experiment, whose result would invariably be "don't do this", > perhaps. > Bad enough having them in filenames. The problem with spaces in filenames is that they're spaces. Were they ASCII-255 (or other) characters, it wouldn't be any kind of issue at all ... even in non-quoted form. It would merely require that we change our parsing algorithms from searching for alphanumeric + N special symbols, to now be looking for alphanumeric + (N+1) special symbols, using space as the delineator. I never understood why compiler (and even OS) designers, at least those doing new work in the 1990s, didn't do this. It's so obvious and removes the whole delineation issue. You'd just need to teach developers one time to type something like Shift+Space if they want a space in a variable name. And if they won't, then they can continue to type in variable names as they've always done, with underscores or all squished together. As for GUI interfaces and input mechanisms, these could automatically fix up what the input was without any "regular users" having to do any Shift+Space combinations unless they are skilled / foward-thinking and want to do so. Best regards, Rick C. Hodgin |
| Mr Flibble <flibbleREMOVETHISBIT@i42.co.uk>: Oct 29 05:26PM On 29/10/2014 14:29, Rick C. Hodgin wrote: > without question, such as a type of mini (|cask|). > Something like this: > http://snag.gy/a8SpE.jpg Totally ridiculous; there is nothing wrong with underscores. /Flibble |
| Geoff <geoff@invalid.invalid>: Oct 29 11:05AM -0700 On Wed, 29 Oct 2014 17:26:57 +0000, Mr Flibble >> Something like this: >> http://snag.gy/a8SpE.jpg >Totally ridiculous; there is nothing wrong with underscores. I would further add that there is absolutely no difference between insertion of a shifted space or some other artificial spacing construct and an underscore. You're still inserting some kind of character into the variable name and it is exactly the same amount of work. |
| "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com>: Oct 29 11:31AM -0700 On Wednesday, October 29, 2014 2:05:38 PM UTC-4, Geoff wrote: > ...You're still inserting some kind of > character into the variable name and it is exactly the same amount of > work. The thing about adding the ability to use spaces into a language, and therefore make it more human-friendly, instead of the old-school "why use fuel injectors? Carbs work just fine!" underscore mentality, is that when the ability to use spaces exists (here's the best part), that if you don't like them, then you don't have to use them!! But, if you do like them, there they are for your eyes. I will add them to RDC and VXB/VXB++. Probably won't make a dent in the world's fish population or ozone layer ... but they'll be there so as to lead by example (or follow surely some other languages allow spaces?? Surely??). Here's some commentary: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1805030/why-do-programming-languages-not-allow-spaces-in-identifiers Everybody's commenting on "using spaces" in variable names. I'm not suggesting to use spaces (ASCII-32), but rather another parseable character. Surely someone has thought of this before. Surely?? I mean it's clear as an empty character there in extended ASCII character code 255. It looks just like a space even. :-) Best regards, Rick C. Hodgin |
| Mr Flibble <flibbleREMOVETHISBIT@i42.co.uk>: Oct 29 06:37PM On 29/10/2014 18:31, Rick C. Hodgin wrote: > that when the ability to use spaces exists (here's the best part), > that if you don't like them, then you don't have to use them!! But, > if you do like them, there they are for your eyes. All adding spaces to things that are meant to be atomic symbols will do is make code more difficult to read; what if you are viewing the code in something other than your fucktarded IDE? > character. Surely someone has thought of this before. Surely?? I > mean it's clear as an empty character there in extended ASCII character > code 255. It looks just like a space even. :-) You are fucking demented mate; also just how is a user supposed to insert character 0xFF quickly with their standard keyboard? /Flibble |
| Geoff <geoff@invalid.invalid>: Oct 29 12:33PM -0700 On Wed, 29 Oct 2014 11:31:45 -0700 (PDT), "Rick C. Hodgin" >I'm not suggesting to use spaces (ASCII-32), but rather another parseable >character. That other parseable character is an underscore, easily found, easily typed, common to all keyboards, within the original ASCII character set and in use for decades. Change for change sake is not good change. If you are going to write a language that allows spaces in variable names then you should make it a space - a real space - and not some contrived off-the-wall half-assed thingy that can only be parsed by some half-assed, unfinished and unspecified IDE that attempts to emulate what has taken Microsoft *decades* to develop with dozens of developers on the job. For all your time and trouble you should drop your RDC compiler or whatever you're calling it this week and write a compiler that accepts natural SPOKEN language as input. |
| "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com>: Oct 29 01:04PM -0700 On Wednesday, October 29, 2014 3:33:44 PM UTC-4, Geoff wrote: > Change for change sake is not good change. I agree. This isn't a change for change sake. I personally think general use of underscores is hideous. Always have. They have application where they're applicable, such as to divide things into easily recognizable groups by a delineator, but that's it so far as I'm concerned. I've had in mind to introduce spaces into my compiler since I first decided to begin writing one back in the early/mid-90s. I just haven't gotten there yet. But soon (prayerfully, James 4:15). > For all your time and trouble you should drop your RDC compiler or > whatever you're calling it this week My compiler has always been RDC since 2011. The confusion may stem from me periodically mentioning VXB and VXB++. Those are two XBASE definition languages written for Visual FreePro, Jr. and Visual FreePro, respectively. VXB is a lesser version of VXB++ (in case you couldn't put that together) to go along with Visual FreePro, Jr. being a lesser version of Visual FreePro. > and write a compiler that accepts natural SPOKEN language as input. That's a different issue, of course. Best regards, Rick C. Hodgin |
| David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no>: Oct 29 09:22PM +0100 On 29/10/14 15:03, Rick C. Hodgin wrote: > color that the eye catches it, but not so different that it's overtly > intrusive). By experience, a color delta of about 10% seems to work > for these purposes. :-) Programmers have been using a visible NBSP character in identifier names for decades - it is the underscore_character. Why not just use that, just like everyone else? |
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