jak <nospam@please.ty>: Mar 30 04:00AM +0200
> A pity richie/kernigan decided to use ^ for xor. I guess they wanted to keep
> the bitwise operators as a single char but $ or @ would have been preferable.
For US keyboard users, this is, probably, a good idea.
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Muttley@dastardlyhq.com: Mar 30 08:24AM
On Thu, 30 Mar 2023 04:00:33 +0200
>> A pity richie/kernigan decided to use ^ for xor. I guess they wanted to keep
>> the bitwise operators as a single char but $ or @ would have been preferable.
>For US keyboard users, this is, probably, a good idea.
AFAIK those 2 characters are universal on PC keyboards regardless of
language.
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Paavo Helde <eesnimi@osa.pri.ee>: Mar 30 03:20PM +0300
>> For US keyboard users, this is, probably, a good idea.
> AFAIK those 2 characters are universal on PC keyboards regardless of
> language.
At Soviet times, Russians did not want to see a dollar sign on their
keyboards, so it was replaced by a general currency sign ¤
("https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Currency_sign_(typography)"). It still
generated ASCII 36 though IIRC.
In standard Estonian keyboard layout, both @ and $ are accessible with
AltGr combinations, which are pretty inconvenient to type. Ditto for
brackets and braces []{}. That's why I'm myself using US keyboards only,
I need []{} much more than õäöü.
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David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no>: Mar 30 04:34PM +0200
On 30/03/2023 14:20, Paavo Helde wrote:
> AltGr combinations, which are pretty inconvenient to type. Ditto for
> brackets and braces []{}. That's why I'm myself using US keyboards only,
> I need []{} much more than õäöü.
The AltGr combinations for these symbols never bothered me on Norwegian
layout keyboards. When I moved from the UK to Norway many eons ago, it
took me a couple of weeks to get used to the changed layout, and I never
looked back. ~ is a little awkward, as it needs AltGr and it's a dead
key (thus needing a space after pressing it). But I don't see AltGr as
any harder to press than shift. I find the standard UK or US layout
restrictive and limited.
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Muttley@dastardlyhq.com: Mar 30 03:19PM
On Thu, 30 Mar 2023 16:34:25 +0200
>key (thus needing a space after pressing it). But I don't see AltGr as
>any harder to press than shift. I find the standard UK or US layout
>restrictive and limited.
Being able to access standard ascii characters used in C/C++ is restrictive
but requiring a load of AltGr nonsense isn't?
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"james...@alumni.caltech.edu" <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu>: Mar 30 08:48AM -0700
> >For US keyboard users, this is, probably, a good idea.
> AFAIK those 2 characters are universal on PC keyboards regardless of
> language.
Well, AFAYK doesn't extend far enough. The variants compared in the table at
<https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO/IEC_646#Variant_comparison_chart>
were not created just for the fun of causing confusion. Each of those variants
was created because a fairly large group of people wanted to use keyboards
labeled with those variant characters, which could easily be used to type them,
along with monitors that would display them and printers that would print them.
Of the 60 variants compared in that chart, 21 have no '$' and 38 have no '@'.
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David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no>: Mar 30 05:55PM +0200
>> restrictive and limited.
> Being able to access standard ascii characters used in C/C++ is restrictive
> but requiring a load of AltGr nonsense isn't?
No - and I can't see how you interpreted my post so backwards.
I have no problem typing ASCII symbols such as $, @, #, {} and [] - I
just use the AltGr in some cases where others might use the shift key.
I do not find it makes any noticeable difference. Of course it takes
time to change habits and muscle memory - but once you are used to it,
one position is as good as another.
The restrictive nature of UK and US standard layouts comes into play
when you want to type something other than plain ASCII. I can write
I²C, µF, πr², 25°C, café, naïve, 2½, «Hello», and lots of other symbols
directly from the keyboard - no need for "character applets" or other
inconveniences when typing. (And obviously I can also type the
Norwegian letters å, ø and æ easily.) I like being able to write things
correctly - spelling peoples' names with the correct accents, and using
appropriate symbols instead of being limited to a character set
marginally beyond that of a typewriter.
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Muttley@dastardlyhq.com: Mar 30 04:15PM
On Thu, 30 Mar 2023 08:48:42 -0700 (PDT)
>hem.
>Of the 60 variants compared in that chart, 21 have no '$' and 38 have no '@=
>'.
Any modern computer keyboard that doesn't allow immediate access to the basic
7 bit ascii character set is defective.
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Muttley@dastardlyhq.com: Mar 30 04:17PM
On Thu, 30 Mar 2023 17:55:46 +0200
>when you want to type something other than plain ASCII. I can write
>I²C, µF, πr², 25°C, café, naïve, 2½, «Hello», and lots of other
>symbols
Whatever those are they come out as gibberish in my terminal.
>correctly - spelling peoples' names with the correct accents, and using
>appropriate symbols instead of being limited to a character set
>marginally beyond that of a typewriter.
I'm sure your norwegian keyboard would be really useful for typing french
or german.
7 bit ASCII is the default base for any PC (or Mac). A keyboard should make
all the ascii character easily accessable.
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David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no>: Mar 30 07:07PM +0200
>> I²C, µF, πr², 25°C, café, naïve, 2½, «Hello», and lots of other
>> symbols
> Whatever those are they come out as gibberish in my terminal.
Are you unable to view UTF-8 ? What newsreader are you using?
>> marginally beyond that of a typewriter.
> I'm sure your norwegian keyboard would be really useful for typing french
> or german.
It would be fine for small texts - it is perfectly able to handle the
required accented letters such as ß, ç, ü, è, etc. I don't know if
French or German typists prefer a different layout or dedicated keys for
some of the accents or accented letters that they use more often. The
same goes for any other language written using Latin characters - I can
easily type the additional Iceland or Polish letters, but someone
writing in those languages might want dedicated keys (where I have keys
for the Norwegian letters) rather than AltGr + d, t, or l.
Once you get to different alphabets, for languages like Bulgarian or
Greek, it's a different matter - then you'd want a different keyboard
layout entirely.
> 7 bit ASCII is the default base for any PC (or Mac). A keyboard should make
> all the ascii character easily accessable.
My keyboard layout handles that fine. But it does more than that - I
live in the modern international world, not insular 1970's America, and
7-bit ASCII is not sufficient.
I believe it is quite practical to have UK or US layouts with dead keys
too, and get easy access to a range of additional characters while
keeping braces and brackets in the position you like.
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Paavo Helde <eesnimi@osa.pri.ee>: Mar 30 08:23PM +0300
30.03.2023 20:07 David Brown kirjutas:
> I believe it is quite practical to have UK or US layouts with dead keys
> too, and get easy access to a range of additional characters while
> keeping braces and brackets in the position you like.
Yes, that's the setup I'm using. Quote characters and tilde come via
dead keys this way, but I'm used to that.
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"james...@alumni.caltech.edu" <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu>: Mar 30 10:39AM -0700
> On Thu, 30 Mar 2023 08:48:42 -0700 (PDT)
> "james...@alumni.caltech.edu" <james...@alumni.caltech.edu> wrote:
...
> >'.
> Any modern computer keyboard that doesn't allow immediate access to the basic
> 7 bit ascii character set is defective.
I'm sure that's true for you. However, those variants exist precisely because there are other people who would consider any keyboard which doesn't allow immediate access to their preferred variant to be defective.
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scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal): Mar 30 05:53PM
>I'm sure that's true for you. However, those variants exist precisely becau=
>se there are other people who would consider any keyboard which doesn't all=
>ow immediate access to their preferred variant to be defective.
Muttley appears to be British, and many brits still believe the sun doesn't
set on the empire. That's no longer the case.
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Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk>: Mar 30 08:14PM +0100
> names with the correct accents, and using appropriate symbols instead of
> being limited to a character set marginally beyond that of a
> typewriter.
I think you are bundling more that is warranted into the phrase "UK and
US standard layouts". I have an entirely standard UK layout, but I can
type those characters with ease. The OS and it's input methods have
more to do with it than what I would call the "layout", but maybe I'm
missing something from what you mean by the term.
I don't think you will convince Muttley. There's a particular Internet
clan who see facilitating typing (or, God forbid, posting) non-ASCII
characters as the thin end of some subversive socialist wedge. First
they let you type an acute accent, but then they come for your guns!
--
Ben.
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Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk>: Mar 30 08:21PM +0100
>>ow immediate access to their preferred variant to be defective.
> Muttley appears to be British, and many brits still believe the sun doesn't
> set on the empire. That's no longer the case.
I am sad for my country's recent dive into xenophobic politics, but that
imperial attitude is not common among those young enough to know what an
emoji is! I thought Muttley was from the USA as ASCII-nationalism has,
historically, been more common in the US than in the UK.
--
Ben.
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