soft and program: comp.lang.c++ - 25 new messages in 11 topics

comp.lang.c++
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.c++?hl=en

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Today's topics:

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Speed of C++ compared with speed of other languages
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.c++/t/786cfdf0ab25866d?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 7 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 25 2009 6:30 am
From: ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram)

James Kanze <james.kanze@gmail.com> writes:
>As I said before, never trust a benchmark you haven't falsified

Yes, of course, it all starts with the fact, that one cannot
compare the �speed of languages� but only the speed of
specific programs running under a specific /implementation/
of a language running under a specific operating system
running on a specific hardware.

What is language-specific is only the fact that some
language features make some kinds of optimization possible
(like �restrict� in C) or impossible (e.g., when aliasing by
pointers is possible).

So, if I had to implement some algorithm, I would not refuse
Java from the first, because it is �slow�, but do some
benchmarking with code in the direction of that algorithm.

After all, /if/ Java is sufficiently fast for my purpose,
it gives me some conveniences, such as run-time array index
checking, automatic memory management and freedom from
the need for (sometimes risky) pointer arithmetics.

== 2 of 7 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 25 2009 11:01 am
From: tanix@mongo.net (tanix)

In article <ec7d2a9b-ee76-46b6-ae3a-587d199b66f0@s3g2000yqs.googlegroups.com>, James Kanze <james.kanze@gmail.com> wrote:
>On Dec 23, 11:21 pm, Branimir Maksimovic <bm...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> tanix wrote:
>> > In article <hgskgk$kc...@news.albasani.net>, Vladimir Jovic
> <vladasp...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > C++ would probably be benefited tremendously if it adopted some
>> > of the central Java concept, such as GC, threads and GUI.
>
>> GC is heavy performance killer especially on multiprocessor systems
>> in combination with threads....it is slow, complex and inefficient...
>
>Obviously, you've never actually measured. A lot depends on the
>application, but typically, C++ with garbage collection runs
>slightly faster than C++ without garbage collection. Especially
>in a multi-threaded envirionment,
>
> [...]
>> > Except that would require an equivalent of a virtual machine
>> > underneath.
>
>> virtual machine is also heavy performance killer...
>
>Which explains why some of the leading experts in optimization
>claim that it is necessary for the best optimization. (I don't
>fully buy that claim, but a virtual machine does have a couple
>of advantages when it come to optimizing: it sees the actual
>data being processed, for example, and the actual machine being
>run on, and can optimize to both.)

Yep. And the more high level some abstraction is,
the more performance it can gain and the less of even theoretical
advantage any other approach may claim.

>> > And that is one of central issues with Java.
>
>> Yes.
>> I think java is designed in such way that it will still be slow in
>> comparison to other compiled languages...if it is compiled
>> language.
>
>First, Java is a compiled language, and second, it's not slower
>than any of the other compiled languages, globally. (Specific
>programs may vary, of course.)

And that is exactly what I am seeing in my own situation.

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== 3 of 7 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 25 2009 11:07 am
From: tanix@mongo.net (tanix)

In article <8cadf38f-8554-462e-9d2e-0510e77ff918@26g2000yqo.googlegroups.com>, James Kanze <james.kanze@gmail.com> wrote:
>On Dec 24, 1:03 am, Branimir Maksimovic <bm...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> Kaz Kylheku wrote:
>> > On 2009-12-23, Branimir Maksimovic <bm...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> >> tanix wrote:
>> >>> In article <hgskgk$kc...@news.albasani.net>, Vladimir
>> >>> Jovic <vladasp...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>> C++ would probably be benefited tremendously if it adopted some
>> >>> of the central Java concept, such as GC, threads and GUI.
>> >> GC is heavy performance killer especially on multiprocessor systems
>
>> > Is not.
>
>> Hm, explain to me how can any thread, access or change any
>> pointer in memory without lock while gc is collecting....
>> There is no way for gc to collect without stopping all threads
>> without locking.... because gc is just another thread(s) in
>> itself...
>
>Maybe. I've not actually studied the implementations in
>detail. I've just measured actual time. And the result is that
>over a wide variety of applications, garbage collection is, on
>the average, slightly faster. (With some applications where it
>is radically faster, and others where it is noticeably slower.)
>
>> >> in combination with threads....it is slow, complex and
>> >> inefficient...
>
>> > Religious belief.
>
>> Of course. GC is complex program that has only one purpose.
>> To let programmer not write free(p), but programmer
>> still has to write close(fd).
>> What's the purpose of that?
>
>Less lines of code to write.
>
>If you're paid by the line, garbage collection is a bad thing.
>Otherwise, it's a useful tool, to be used when appropriate.
>
>> > GC is very efficient from an SMP point of view, because it
>> > allows for immutable objects to be truly immutable, over
>> > most of their lifetime. No book-keeping operations have to
>> > be performed on objects that are just passed around
>> > throughout the program (such as bumping refcounts up and
>> > down).
>
>> Refcounts are negligible in comparison to what gc is doing.
>
>Reference counting is very expensive in a multithreaded
>environment.
>
>And in the end, measurements trump abstract claims.
>
> [...]
>> > No storage reclamation strategy is free of overhead. Even if
>> > your program correctly manages memory by itself with
>> > explicit new and delete, there is a cost.
>
>> Manual memory deallocation is simple, fast and efficient.
>> Nothing so complex like GC. Cost of new and delete is nothing
>> in comparison to GC.
>
>That's definitely not true in practice.
>
> [...]
>> GC cannot be implemented efficiently since it has to mess with
>> memory...
>
>What you mean is that you don't know how to implement it
>efficiently. Nor do I, for that matter, but I'm willing to
>accept that there are people who know more about the issues than
>I do. And I've measured the results of their work.
>
> [...]
>> I don't want to discuss this, but it is obvious that nothing
>> in java is designed with performance in mind. Quite
>> opposite....
>
>You don't want to discuss it, so you state some blatent lie, and
>expect everyone to just accept it at face value. Some parts of
>Java were definitely designed with performance in mind (e.g.
>using int, instead of a class type). Others less so. But the
>fact remains that with a good JVM, Java runs just as fast as C++
>in most applications. Speed is not an argument against Java
>(except for some specific programs), at least on machines which
>have a good JVM.

I happened to have looked at some java source code and in those
places I looked at, I could not see a way of getting it to have
more performance.

These fools that those, who wrote java and various packages
are just lazy bums, while in reality those are the cream of the
crop programmers and these fools would probably have not a
chance to pass the interview at Sun, regardless of whether they
are C++ big mouths or what.

This is the CREAM OF THE CROP of nothing less then a Silicon Valley,
and most of all what these fools have to say is nothing more than
the sucking sounds.

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== 4 of 7 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 25 2009 1:39 pm
From: Branimir Maksimovic

tanix wrote:
> In article <ec7d2a9b-ee76-46b6-ae3a-587d199b66f0@s3g2000yqs.googlegroups.com>, James Kanze <james.kanze@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Dec 23, 11:21 pm, Branimir Maksimovic <bm...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>> tanix wrote:
>>>> In article <hgskgk$kc...@news.albasani.net>, Vladimir Jovic
>> <vladasp...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> C++ would probably be benefited tremendously if it adopted some
>>>> of the central Java concept, such as GC, threads and GUI.
>>> GC is heavy performance killer especially on multiprocessor systems
>>> in combination with threads....it is slow, complex and inefficient...
>> Obviously, you've never actually measured. A lot depends on the
>> application, but typically, C++ with garbage collection runs
>> slightly faster than C++ without garbage collection. Especially
>> in a multi-threaded envirionment,
>>
>> [...]
>>>> Except that would require an equivalent of a virtual machine
>>>> underneath.
>>> virtual machine is also heavy performance killer...
>> Which explains why some of the leading experts in optimization
>> claim that it is necessary for the best optimization. (I don't
>> fully buy that claim, but a virtual machine does have a couple
>> of advantages when it come to optimizing: it sees the actual
>> data being processed, for example, and the actual machine being
>> run on, and can optimize to both.)
>
> Yep. And the more high level some abstraction is,
> the more performance it can gain and the less of even theoretical
> advantage any other approach may claim.

You believe in ferry tales... ;0)

Greets

--
http://maxa.homedns.org/

== 5 of 7 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 25 2009 1:46 pm
From: Branimir Maksimovic

James Kanze wrote:
> On Dec 23, 11:21 pm, Branimir Maksimovic <bm...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> tanix wrote:
>>> In article <hgskgk$kc...@news.albasani.net>, Vladimir Jovic <vladasp...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> C++ would probably be benefited tremendously if it adopted some
>>> of the central Java concept, such as GC, threads and GUI.
>
>> GC is heavy performance killer especially on multiprocessor systems
>> in combination with threads....it is slow, complex and inefficient...
>
> Obviously, you've never actually measured. A lot depends on the
> application, but typically, C++ with garbage collection runs
> slightly faster than C++ without garbage collection. Especially
> in a multi-threaded envirionment,

How that can possibly be? GC kills all threads when it has
to collect? Or it can magically sweep through heap,stack,bss
etc and scan without locking all the time or stopping program?
Explain to me how?
Manual deallocation does not have to lock at all....

>
> [...]
>>> Except that would require an equivalent of a virtual machine
>>> underneath.
>
>> virtual machine is also heavy performance killer...
>
> Which explains why some of the leading experts in optimization
> claim that it is necessary for the best optimization. (I don't
> fully buy that claim, but a virtual machine does have a couple
> of advantages when it come to optimizing: it sees the actual
> data being processed, for example, and the actual machine being
> run on, and can optimize to both.)

Best optimization is when you can manually control memory management
and have access to hardware directly. Everything else
is algorithm optimization...which can be done in any language.

>
>>> And that is one of central issues with Java.
>
>> Yes.
>> I think java is designed in such way that it will still be slow in
>> comparison to other compiled languages...if it is compiled
>> language.
>
> First, Java is a compiled language, and second, it's not slower
> than any of the other compiled languages, globally. (Specific
> programs may vary, of course.)

Java is compiled language in a sense that any interpreted language
is run time compiled...but that does not makes those languages
compiled...
For example php with popen calling c executable in my experience
is about three times faster as a server than jetty/solr
for example...

Greets

--
http://maxa.homedns.org/

== 6 of 7 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 25 2009 1:50 pm
From: Branimir Maksimovic

James Kanze wrote:
> On Dec 24, 2:03 pm, Branimir Maksimovic <bm...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> Stefan Ram wrote:
>
> [...]
>> Allocation is not where GC fails, rather deallocation....
>
> It doesn't fail there, either. But any comparison should take
> deallocation into consideration. (Well, formally... there's no
> deallocation with garbage collection. But the system must take
> some steps to determine when memory can be reused.)
>
>> Because there is no fastest and simpler way to perform
>> collection, than to stop program, perform collection in
>> multiple threads, then let program work....
>
> Try Googleing for "incremental garbage collection".
>
Incremental garbage collection is form of collection when
you don;t free everything immediately, but this does not
change a fact whenever you have to see if something is referenced
or not you have to stop program and examine pointers,
which of course kills performance of threads...

Greets

--
http://maxa.homedns.org/

== 7 of 7 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 25 2009 1:54 pm
From: tanix@mongo.net (tanix)

In article <hh3bev$lj9$1@news.albasani.net>, Branimir Maksimovic <bmaxa@hotmail.com> wrote:
>tanix wrote:
>> In article
> <ec7d2a9b-ee76-46b6-ae3a-587d199b66f0@s3g2000yqs.googlegroups.com>, James
> Kanze <james.kanze@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Dec 23, 11:21 pm, Branimir Maksimovic <bm...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>> tanix wrote:
>>>>> In article <hgskgk$kc...@news.albasani.net>, Vladimir Jovic
>>> <vladasp...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> C++ would probably be benefited tremendously if it adopted some
>>>>> of the central Java concept, such as GC, threads and GUI.
>>>> GC is heavy performance killer especially on multiprocessor systems
>>>> in combination with threads....it is slow, complex and inefficient...
>>> Obviously, you've never actually measured. A lot depends on the
>>> application, but typically, C++ with garbage collection runs
>>> slightly faster than C++ without garbage collection. Especially
>>> in a multi-threaded envirionment,
>>>
>>> [...]
>>>>> Except that would require an equivalent of a virtual machine
>>>>> underneath.
>>>> virtual machine is also heavy performance killer...
>>> Which explains why some of the leading experts in optimization
>>> claim that it is necessary for the best optimization. (I don't
>>> fully buy that claim, but a virtual machine does have a couple
>>> of advantages when it come to optimizing: it sees the actual
>>> data being processed, for example, and the actual machine being
>>> run on, and can optimize to both.)
>>
>> Yep. And the more high level some abstraction is,
>> the more performance it can gain and the less of even theoretical
>> advantage any other approach may claim.
>
>You believe in ferry tales... ;0)

I don't have to believe. It is pretty much self evident.
Why?

Well, because the higher level is your abstraction,
the less impact the language has. Because you have a virtual machine
underneeth that can do anything you please, and as efficiently
as anything else under the sun.

Basically, you are running a machine code at that level.

About the only thing you can claim is: well, but what are those
additional calls? Well, yep, there IS a theoretical overhead.
But once you start looking at the nasty details of it, it all
becomes pretty much a pipe dream.

There are ALL sorts of things that happen under the hood, and
in plenty of cases, your low level details become insignificant
in the scheme of things.

Simple as that.

>Greets

--
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==============================================================================
TOPIC: ÐÂÀ´µÄ£¬·¢¸öÌùÊÔÊÔ
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.c++/t/df6ba3af9ed2fc11?hl=en
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== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 25 2009 7:19 am
From: "Lee Billows"

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--
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TOPIC: xmas
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.c++/t/f35e4ad5d869f449?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 25 2009 7:36 am
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==============================================================================
TOPIC: Locale to Unicode Codepoint mapping?
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.c++/t/0f87b730b24e407a?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 25 2009 7:59 am
From: Paavo Helde

"Peter Olcott" <NoSpam@SeeScreen.com> wrote in news:EMCdnTXL-
5ZSW6nWnZ2dnUVZ_qudnZ2d@giganews.com:

>
> "James Kanze" <james.kanze@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:991f32d8-319c-45ad-9b9c-12a7f2a3daef@s31g2000yqs.googlegroups.com...
>> On Dec 23, 6:27 pm, "Peter Olcott" <NoS...@SeeScreen.com>
>> wrote:
>>> I need to know the set of Unicode codepoints associated
>>> with
>>> every regional dialect of a human language. How can I go
>>> about finding this information?
>>
>> www.unicode.org. Go to the code charts under the
>> standard.
>>
>> In general, for such things, look for the reference site.
>> This
>> one is actually very well done, but even in the case of
>> those
>> that are less well done, the reference is the reference.
>>
>> --
>> James Kanze
>
> I already studied these for many hours. They do not have
> what I need. I need to know the exact subset of Unicode code
> points that apply to a specific dialect of a specific
> language. A superset of these will not do, I must have the
> minimum set of code points.

Do you realize that there are thousands of languages and dialects?
WikiAnswers offers a number like 2261 for the number of languages having a
writing system.

In any case, the local alphabete ultimately depends on the local national
decisions and conventions - which characters are considered to belong to
the national character set, and which are not. This can change over time.

> This has to be known because the
> keyboard must know which glyphs to produce.

Knowing what characters some vendor has decided to include in a keyboard
mapping for given language might help of course. However, this must not be
relied on too much.

> I am working on internationalizing this system:
> www.OCR4Screen.com
>

For OCR-like tasks one also has to consider that text can often contain
foreign characters and even words. For example, in Russian technical texts
it is common to type technical terms in Latin alphabete. To make things
worse, there are many symbols which have the same look in Cyrillic and in
Latin, but correspond to different Unicode code points. Recognizing them
correctly is no easy task.

5-minute Google search produced these pages, maybe these are of any help:

http://developer.mimer.com/charts/index.tml
http://www.evertype.com/alphabets/

Paavo

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==============================================================================
TOPIC: C++ jobs down another 40%
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.c++/t/6718a9cd2f3ecdbf?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 6 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 25 2009 10:13 am
From: Jon Harrop

James Kanze wrote:
> On Dec 23, 11:02 pm, red floyd <redfl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Dec 23, 12:50 pm, Jon Harrop <j...@ffconsultancy.com> wrote:
>> > The number of job adverts in the UK citing C++ has fallen
>> > 40% for the second year in a row:
>
>> Hey, Jon! Wha'ts the market for F# jobs like?
>
> There is one, albeit not as big as that for C++.
>
> In practice, if you look at long term trends (and not short
> swings), C++ is pretty safe for the future.

Are you saying that four years of rapid decline is a "short term swing" and
not a "long term trend"?

--
Dr Jon D Harrop, Flying Frog Consultancy Ltd.
http://www.ffconsultancy.com/?u

== 2 of 6 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 25 2009 10:43 am
From: Brian

On Dec 23, 2:50 pm, Jon Harrop <j...@ffconsultancy.com> wrote:
> The number of job adverts in the UK citing C++ has fallen 40% for the second
> year in a row:
>

I think C++ programmers are becoming more productive with the
abundance of tools and libraries at their fingertips. It's
possible today for one C++ programmer to accomplish what used
to take two C++ programmers.

Shalom
Brian Wood
http://webEbenezer.net

== 3 of 6 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 25 2009 10:57 am
From: tanix@mongo.net (tanix)

In article <66e7b0f7-4c71-4db4-a9f1-3f9d7e4dc5a5@a32g2000yqm.googlegroups.com>, James Kanze <james.kanze@gmail.com> wrote:
>On Dec 23, 11:02 pm, red floyd <redfl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Dec 23, 12:50 pm, Jon Harrop <j...@ffconsultancy.com> wrote:
>
>> > The number of job adverts in the UK citing C++ has fallen
>> > 40% for the second year in a row:
>
>> Hey, Jon! Wha'ts the market for F# jobs like?
>
>There is one, albeit not as big as that for C++.
>
>In practice, if you look at long term trends (and not short
>swings), C++ is pretty safe for the future. With regards to F#,
>it's too early to tell---the language hasn't been around long
>enough to establish any long term trends,

Well, I just looked at it on Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F_Sharp_%28programming_language%29

Looks like another bluff to me. All sorts of bells and whistles.
For me, personally, it is a no go, and primarlily because it is
based on .net framework. Meaning, it will be totally controlled
and dominated by Microsoft with all associated consequences,
such as everything under the Sun will be patented and copirighted.
It is going to cost you an arm and a leg if you ever touch anything
related to it.

It will NEVER be accepted by the world at large because of those
very arm twisting patents and heavy duty blood flows into the
black hole of "the head", if any of you know what it means.

Unless some new language is accepted by everybody and it is
portable and does not tie in to some mega-sucking corporation,
it is a no go for me no matter how you cut it.

Microsoft simply killed Sun when those guys sued them.

Then, being the rotten thieves they are, ms took the central
ideas of Java and all the associated development work, then
repackaged it and placed a sticker "Microsoft copyrighted
and patented" on it.

They were thiefs from the day one, raping and pillaging,
and they remain theiefs to this day and for any forceable future.

They were born on intellectual theft by taking the work of
Gary Kildall, the author of CP/M, buy purchasing some rip off artists,
who reverse egineered the CP/M operating system, and that was their
first contract with IBM, as a result of which these "lewser" fools,
who could only create a sickness called M-Basic and nothing more
than that, became what they are today.

This monster was born on Gary's blood.

I bet they did not even say thank you to him and he did not get
a penny in return, even though he, single handedly, was the
creator of the destop computer as far as its very heart, an O/S
goes.

To this day, everybody is using BIOS, which was Garys brilliant
insight.

The demise of Java is probably the biggest tragedy in the sw world.
By FAR, thanks to these servants of evil.

As soon as I see Microsoft lable on anything, it means death to me.
Microsoft is the very symbol of death and destrution,
and that "the head" thing is what its real meaning,
and that is evil raging as hell. Utterly unhumane. Utterly destructive.
Utterly dishonest and totally parasitic to the very body of mankind
as such.

In my opinion, unless there is a language that is accepted outside
of this blood thirsty "business" super-sucking model, there is no
hope for any genuine progress.

Simple as that.

--
Programmer's Goldmine collections:

http://preciseinfo.org

Tens of thousands of code examples and expert discussions on
C++, MFC, VC, ATL, STL, templates, Java, Python, Javascript,
organized by major topics of language, tools, methods, techniques.

== 4 of 6 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 25 2009 11:15 am
From: tanix@mongo.net (tanix)

In article <ItSdnThEINvlcqnWnZ2dnUVZ8qZi4p2d@brightview.co.uk>, Jon Harrop <jon@ffconsultancy.com> wrote:
>James Kanze wrote:
>> On Dec 23, 11:02 pm, red floyd <redfl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Dec 23, 12:50 pm, Jon Harrop <j...@ffconsultancy.com> wrote:
>>> > The number of job adverts in the UK citing C++ has fallen
>>> > 40% for the second year in a row:
>>
>>> Hey, Jon! Wha'ts the market for F# jobs like?
>>
>> There is one, albeit not as big as that for C++.
>>
>> In practice, if you look at long term trends (and not short
>> swings), C++ is pretty safe for the future.
>
>Are you saying that four years of rapid decline is a "short term swing" and
>not a "long term trend"?

Well, you have to put things in perspective.
Just taking C++ as some isolated case is not correct.
The same thing is happening to Java, at least from the traffic
I am seeing and that traffic is generated by mostly professional
programmers from every single leading sw house or every single
biggest and baddest enterprise for that matter.

From what I see, the decay in non dynamically scoped languages
largely comes from the fact that other languages can fulfill
the requirements in more and more situations.

More and more of sw engineering is web related nowadays,
or information related. Just the fact that Google got so arrogant
as to challenge the Microsoft in their stronghold, the O/S
business by trying to obliterate the very concept of O/S as
something being inherently necessary in your box, says more
about it than anything else.

To challange WHO? Nothing less than Microsoft?
And in their MAIN game? What does it tell you?

--
Programmer's Goldmine collections:

http://preciseinfo.org

Tens of thousands of code examples and expert discussions on
C++, MFC, VC, ATL, STL, templates, Java, Python, Javascript,
organized by major topics of language, tools, methods, techniques.

== 5 of 6 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 25 2009 1:10 pm
From: "Chris M. Thomasson"

"tanix" <tanix@mongo.net> wrote in message
news:hh31vk$82i$1@news.eternal-september.org...
> In article
> <66e7b0f7-4c71-4db4-a9f1-3f9d7e4dc5a5@a32g2000yqm.googlegroups.com>, James
> Kanze <james.kanze@gmail.com> wrote:
>>On Dec 23, 11:02 pm, red floyd <redfl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Dec 23, 12:50 pm, Jon Harrop <j...@ffconsultancy.com> wrote:
>>
>>> > The number of job adverts in the UK citing C++ has fallen
>>> > 40% for the second year in a row:
>>
>>> Hey, Jon! Wha'ts the market for F# jobs like?
[...]
>
> Well, I just looked at it on Wikipedia:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F_Sharp_%28programming_language%29
>
> Looks like another bluff to me. All sorts of bells and whistles.
> For me, personally, it is a no go, and primarlily because it is
> based on .net framework.

FWIW, here is a fairly portable C# and CLR implementation:

http://www.mono-project.com

== 6 of 6 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 25 2009 1:30 pm
From: tanix@mongo.net (tanix)

In article <xR9Zm.3013$8e4.2445@newsfe03.iad>, "Chris M. Thomasson" <no@spam.invalid> wrote:
>"tanix" <tanix@mongo.net> wrote in message
>news:hh31vk$82i$1@news.eternal-september.org...
>> In article
>> <66e7b0f7-4c71-4db4-a9f1-3f9d7e4dc5a5@a32g2000yqm.googlegroups.com>, James
>> Kanze <james.kanze@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>On Dec 23, 11:02 pm, red floyd <redfl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> On Dec 23, 12:50 pm, Jon Harrop <j...@ffconsultancy.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> > The number of job adverts in the UK citing C++ has fallen
>>>> > 40% for the second year in a row:
>>>
>>>> Hey, Jon! Wha'ts the market for F# jobs like?
>[...]
>>
>> Well, I just looked at it on Wikipedia:
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F_Sharp_%28programming_language%29
>>
>> Looks like another bluff to me. All sorts of bells and whistles.
>> For me, personally, it is a no go, and primarlily because it is
>> based on .net framework.
>
>FWIW, here is a fairly portable C# and CLR implementation:
>
>http://www.mono-project.com

Well, that's something that looks promising,
and the pricing structure what I need is quite reasonable.

I just hate to see things like .net, or asp.net cause that immediately
triggers the Microsoft syndrome in me and all red lights start flashing.
I try to stay away from that stuff like a plague cause I know trouble
is just around the corner, at least from my experience so far.
That is why I feel MUCH more comfortable with Java overall.
Much safer environment any way you look at it.
I'd be willing to pay those guys money if they asked.
It is unfortunate Sun did not come up with some realistic and
reasonable prices structure that I would not have to givem and arm
and a leg, but, at the same time, they could recover some of their
expenses. That would make me feel much happier than to simply get Java
for free, knowing nothing in this world is free.
It is too unfortunate they ended up being bought out by Oracle.
Cause that is probably the end of Java. Oracle is not to far from
all those other big sharks. Pretty much the same camp.

Anyway, can you do GUI with this thing? All I saw so far is GTK
mentioned.

Is there a threads support?
How good is their IDE? Code completion is one of major things for me.
And how good is debugger?

Thanx for a pointer though.

--
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http://preciseinfo.org

Tens of thousands of code examples and expert discussions on
C++, MFC, VC, ATL, STL, templates, Java, Python, Javascript,
organized by major topics of language, tools, methods, techniques.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Discount Wholesale True Religion Jeans Levi s Jeans ED Hardy Jeans
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http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.c++/t/b6b60fefc47b56bc?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
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==============================================================================
TOPIC: Though he is a mercy to all
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.c++/t/c42de3216eeae567?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 25 2009 11:43 am
From: Mary

Though he is a mercy to all, Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be
upon him) did not die for Muslims' sins. It is to be made clear that
the entire concept of someone dying for our sins is in utter
contradiction with the Islamic view of the nature of man and God. In
Islam, every individual is responsible for his/her own salvation.
Everyone, male or female, can directly approach God without any
intermediary of a prophet, saint or priest.
"In order for us to be able to understand the Islamic position
regarding this issue, it is important to be clear about certain
points.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Islamic Reform in the Domain of
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.c++/t/a23a5084c1153314?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 25 2009 12:00 pm
From: xoxoxo xoxoxo

Islam came at a time when there were many forms of worship in the
world. Some of these were remnants of the previous divinely revealed
******ures. Others were completely man-made. Even those acts of
worship that were of divine origin had been corrupted, altered, and
removed from their proper con****s.

Some religions exaggerated the importance of formalism and mindless
ritual. Others went to extremes to free themselves of all notions of
form and order. Some religions went to extremes that made worship a
harmful and painful thing. Some of them also demanded monasticism from
their adherents. Other religions went to extremes in indulgence, often
completely abandoning religious obligations altogether.

Islam came to correct and reform these excessive tendencies, while
establishing principles of its own. It provided principles to bring
about reform and to safeguard worship. The most important of these
principles are as follows:

1. No one deserves to be worshipped except for Allah:

The first thing that Islam came with was the concept of monotheism.
Bearing witness to monotheism is how a person enters into the fold of
Islam and is considered to be a believer. The testimony is as
follows:

"There is no god but Allah. Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah."

These words are a testimony that there is no one worthy of worship
except for Allah. In this way, Islam negates every possible
manifestation of polytheism. The following are some of the ways that
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A. Islam makes polytheism a cause of negating the effects of good
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following words:

"It has been revealed to you and to those who came before you: If you
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B. Islam closes all the doors to polytheism. It pays careful attention
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- The Messenger (may the peace and blessings of Allah be upon him)
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- He prohibited people from seeking assistance through him or through
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of the hypocrites used to abuse the believers, so some of the
believers suggested that they collectively seek help from that
Hypocrite by means of Allah's Messenger (may the peace and blessings
of Allah be upon him). The Prophet (may the peace and blessings of
Allah be upon him) said: "None should seek help through me. Help
should be sought from Allah alone."

C. The Prophet (may the peace and blessings of Allah be upon him)
prohibited people from turning gravesites into places of worship. He
strongly warned against this practice. Near the time of his death, he
repeatedly mentioned this prohibition. He would say: "Allah's wrath
became severe towards those people who turned the graves of their
prophets into places of worship."

D. The Prophet (may the peace and blessings of Allah be upon him)
prohibited people from taking oaths in other than Allah's name,
because an oath implies the aggrandizement of the one in whose name it
is taken. The Prophet (may the peace and blessings of Allah be upon
him) said: "Whoever takes an oath in other than Allah's name has
fallen into polytheism."

E. The Prophet (may the peace and blessings of Allah be upon him)
prohibited people from performing sacrifices to other than Allah. He
said: "Allah has cursed those who offer sacrifices to other than
Allah."

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Why does this crash?
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.c++/t/09275db5bcbd6f3b?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 25 2009 12:12 pm
From: JoeC

I am loading a BYTE array into a vector in an object. Then I want to
reverse the order of the array in the vector.

static
BYTE Bits[] = {0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,
0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,1,1,0,
...

cbm2 = new colorBitmap(Bits,16*16,colors, 12);

colorBitmap::colorBitmap(BYTE * b, int n1, BYTE* rgb, int n2){

int lp;

create();

for(lp = 0; lp != n1; lp++)
bitData.push_back(*b++);

void colorBitmap::flipBitmap(){

std::vector<BYTE>temp;
for(int lp = 0; lp != bitData.size();lp++) <-Fails
temp.push_back(bitData[lp]);

bitData.clear();

for(int lp = bitData.size(); lp !=0; lp--)
bitData.push_back(temp[lp]);

copy(bitData.end(), bitData.begin(), back_inserter(temp)); Fails
as well.

What can I do to work with a vector in a way the program will not
crash?

== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 25 2009 12:47 pm
From: Jonathan Lee

On Dec 25, 3:12 pm, JoeC <enki...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> for(lp = 0; lp != n1; lp++)
> bitData.push_back(*b++);

Pretty sure you could use bitData.assign(b, b + n1) instead.

> for(int lp = 0; lp != bitData.size();lp++) <-Fails
> temp.push_back(bitData[lp]);
>
> bitData.clear();

temp.swap(bitData);

> for(int lp = bitData.size(); lp !=0; lp--)
> bitData.push_back(temp[lp]);

Off by one error. temp[lp - 1]. Also, why wouldn't you begin
lp at temp.size()? They should be the same, I know, but
semantically it makes more sense.

By the end of all this you may as well just do

std::reverse(bitData.begin(), bitData.end());

> copy(bitData.end(), bitData.begin(), back_inserter(temp)); Fails
> as well.

This starts at the end() of bitData and moves *away* from
begin(), indefinitely. Appending to temp for some reason.
Maybe this is alternative code to the preceding?

Maybe you want std::copy_backward()? Or reverse_copy?

>
> What can I do to work with a vector in a way the program will not
> crash?

I'm not sure why the first fail happens. The latter is because
you're reading past the end of "bitData".

--Jonathan

== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 25 2009 1:27 pm
From: JoeC

On Dec 25, 2:47 pm, Jonathan Lee <cho...@shaw.ca> wrote:
> On Dec 25, 3:12 pm, JoeC <enki...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > for(lp = 0; lp != n1; lp++)
> > bitData.push_back(*b++);
>
> Pretty sure you could use bitData.assign(b, b + n1) instead.
>
> > for(int lp = 0; lp != bitData.size();lp++) <-Fails
> > temp.push_back(bitData[lp]);
>
> > bitData.clear();
>
> temp.swap(bitData);
>
> > for(int lp = bitData.size(); lp !=0; lp--)
> > bitData.push_back(temp[lp]);
>
> Off by one error. temp[lp - 1]. Also, why wouldn't you begin
> lp at temp.size()? They should be the same, I know, but
> semantically it makes more sense.
>
> By the end of all this you may as well just do
>
> std::reverse(bitData.begin(), bitData.end());
>
> > copy(bitData.end(), bitData.begin(), back_inserter(temp)); Fails
> > as well.
>
> This starts at the end() of bitData and moves *away* from
> begin(), indefinitely. Appending to temp for some reason.
> Maybe this is alternative code to the preceding?
>
> Maybe you want std::copy_backward()? Or reverse_copy?
>
>
>
> > What can I do to work with a vector in a way the program will not
> > crash?
>
> I'm not sure why the first fail happens. The latter is because
> you're reading past the end of "bitData".
>
> --Jonathan

I am experimenting with my program. It will crash if I try to copy
just one element [0]. I am using the dev c++ free compiler and I
wonder if it has some kind of bug. It gives me a crazy error when I
try to write the destructor for the colorBitmap object. It says:
multiple definition of `colorBitmap::~colorBitmap()'

I send an array to an object then copy that array to a vector then I
want to reverse that vector because they made bitmaps backwards. I
was wondering if I did some kind of pointer error by copying addresses
instead of the values.

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soft and program

Friday, December 25, 2009

comp.lang.c++ - 25 new messages in 11 topics - digest

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