Monday, September 22, 2014

Digest for comp.lang.c++@googlegroups.com - 25 updates in 5 topics

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legalize+jeeves@mail.xmission.com (Richard): Sep 22 12:36AM

[Please do not mail me a copy of your followup]
 
Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> spake the secret code
>> integrated application.
 
>I feel the same way about "proper" IDEs like Eclipse (or whatever it's
>called when it's used for C++ programming).
 
I resisted IDEs until I got a job at a Windows shop around 1998 and they
were using VC6. At first, I had emacs installed on my Windows box and
I would do most editing in emacs. A little while in, I had learned
the VC6 IDE. Once I learned the keyboard shortcuts for manipulating
the IDE, I found it was a productivity boost. Frankly, this surprised
me. I was (and am) a command-line afficionado and I was well versed
in the standard unix command-line toolset. I still use sed and awk
regularly when it's appropriate. However, I kept an open mind about
IDEs and I was willing to give it a try. I suggest that you do too.
 
Currently, my preferred environment for developing C++ code is Visual
Studio with Visual AssistX added on. I'm becoming a fan of CMake for
it's ability to give me a platform portable build yet still let me use
the IDE of my choice, so I only gain, not lose, productivity.
(Maintaining one CMake based build is IMO better than maintaining
parallel Makefiles and VS projects.)
 
The release of CLion and ReSharper for C++ are the most exciting
things to happen lately in the world of C++, IMO. ReSharper for C# is
the one add-on that no C# programmer can live without and IntelliJ is
the one IDE that makes writing Java tolerable (IMO). Both are
JetBrains products and it is truly exciting to see them releasing
products for C++.
--
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book <http://tinyurl.com/d3d-pipeline>
The Computer Graphics Museum <http://computergraphicsmuseum.org>
The Terminals Wiki <http://terminals.classiccmp.org>
Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com>
"Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com>: Sep 22 03:22AM -0700

It uses GCC and GDB. It seemed to be a nice
IDE with excellent integrated error and warning
messages, but GDB provides slower and limited
debugging compared to Visual Studio's IDE
and debugger. And NetBeans with a C++ plugin
seems to provide nearly identical abilities and
is free. So does/is CodeLite.
 
What am I missing?
 
Best regards,
Rick C. Hodgin
legalize+jeeves@mail.xmission.com (Richard): Sep 22 03:16PM

[Please do not mail me a copy of your followup]
 
"Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> spake the secret code
 
>And NetBeans with a C++ plugin
>seems to provide nearly identical abilities and
>is free. So does/is CodeLite.
 
What sort of refactoring/quick fix features does NetBeans provide? I
didn't see much when I browsed their web site.
 
I hadn't looked at CodeLite before, but I see it offers some
refactorings, so I will add it to my list of refactoring tools to test
against my refactoring tool test suite.
<http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com/2010/02/02/c-refactoring-tools-test-suite-available/>
--
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book <http://tinyurl.com/d3d-pipeline>
The Computer Graphics Museum <http://computergraphicsmuseum.org>
The Terminals Wiki <http://terminals.classiccmp.org>
Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com>
"Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com>: Sep 22 08:56AM -0700

On Monday, September 22, 2014 11:17:00 AM UTC-4, Richard wrote:
> >is free. So does/is CodeLite.
 
> What sort of refactoring/quick fix features does NetBeans provide? I
> didn't see much when I browsed their web site.
 
As I recall, it was complete. In fact, it was the best refactoring I've
seen (at least when I used Java). And on C/C++, not only will it refactor,
but it will reformat bad code. There are a host of settings which allow
you to load in someone else's code and have it automatically refactored
into ANSI-C standard, GNU standard, several more, and also custom.
 
It's been a couple years since I've used it. And I would say its GDB
integration was the weakest component ... but that's been my experience
in every IDE that uses GCC and GDB.
 
> refactorings, so I will add it to my list of refactoring tools to test
> against my refactoring tool test suite.
 
> <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com/2010/02/02/c-refactoring-tools-test-suite-available/>
 
CodeLite has undergone a lot of revision over the years. It is a nice
C/C++ IDE across multiple OSes. The author maintains the code for use
on a Mac though, so Windows and Linux are often second class citizens.
:-) It natively knows and will compile with tools outside of GCC,
though I believe it always uses GDB for debugging.
 
Best regards,
Rick C. Hodgin
legalize+jeeves@mail.xmission.com (Richard): Sep 22 04:19PM

[Please do not mail me a copy of your followup]
 
"Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> spake the secret code
 
>> What sort of refactoring/quick fix features does NetBeans provide? I
>> didn't see much when I browsed their web site.
 
>As I recall, it was complete.
 
That would surprise me, since I have yet to find any C/C++ refactoring
tool that was "complete" when it came to rename. Clang-based tools
might be able to get there.
 
I could only find this plugin for netbeans, which is marked experimental:
<http://plugins.netbeans.org/plugin/4024/c-c-experimental-refactoring>
 
It hasn't been updated since 2007, so I am doubtful it is either
complete or keeping up with the changes in the C++ standard.
 
>on a Mac though, so Windows and Linux are often second class citizens.
>:-) It natively knows and will compile with tools outside of GCC,
>though I believe it always uses GDB for debugging.
 
Meh. Using gcc/gdb on Windows is a step down from VS, IMO.
--
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book <http://tinyurl.com/d3d-pipeline>
The Computer Graphics Museum <http://computergraphicsmuseum.org>
The Terminals Wiki <http://terminals.classiccmp.org>
Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com>
"Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com>: Sep 22 09:51AM -0700

On Monday, September 22, 2014 12:19:33 PM UTC-4, Richard wrote:
 
> That would surprise me, since I have yet to find any C/C++ refactoring
> tool that was "complete" when it came to rename. Clang-based tools
> might be able to get there.
 
By complete I meant it could refactor every named symbol. I didn't
exhaustively try them all, but I'm pretty sure I tried several. I
had come from a Java background on NetBeans and as I recall more or
less the same refactoring abilities were there in C/C++.
 
> <http://plugins.netbeans.org/plugin/4024/c-c-experimental-refactoring>
 
> It hasn't been updated since 2007, so I am doubtful it is either
> complete or keeping up with the changes in the C++ standard.
 
I doubt it handled everything with the C or C++ standard, but so far
as refactoring I recall it handling variable name changes, function
name changes, and even doing some basic things like creating function
templates from those defined in the .h but not yet coded in the cpp.
 
I may be thinking of another toolset though. You've got me wondering now.
 
> >It natively knows and will compile with tools outside of GCC,
> >though I believe it always uses GDB for debugging.
 
> Meh. Using gcc/gdb on Windows is a step down from VS, IMO.
 
Agreed completely. In fact, I will often take GCC code to a Windows
environment, spend the time modifying it to work with Visual Studio's
compiler, develop the app or algorithm, then port back to GCC just so
I can avoid having to use GDB, and more specifically, so I can get
Microsoft's Debugger with edit-and-continue.
 
Best regards,
Rick C. Hodgin
legalize+jeeves@mail.xmission.com (Richard): Sep 22 05:47PM

[Please do not mail me a copy of your followup]
 
"Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> spake the secret code
>> tool that was "complete" when it came to rename. Clang-based tools
>> might be able to get there.
 
>By complete I meant it could refactor every named symbol.
 
Right, I agree with this definition of completeness for Rename.
However, I've created over 100 test cases for renaming symbols in C++
and have yet to find any refactoring tool that can get anywhere close
to complete.
 
I will put it on my list of tools to evaluate.
 
>exhaustively try them all, but I'm pretty sure I tried several. I
>had come from a Java background on NetBeans and as I recall more or
>less the same refactoring abilities were there in C/C++.
 
Refactoring correctly for C++ is significantly harder than for Java or
.NET languages.
 
>and even doing some basic things like creating function
>templates from those defined in the .h but not yet coded in the cpp.
 
While these sorts of things are great, they aren't refactorings. This
may seem nitpicky, but it's important to be clear about what is code
generation/assistance and what is refactoring.
 
>compiler, develop the app or algorithm, then port back to GCC just so
>I can avoid having to use GDB, and more specifically, so I can get
>Microsoft's Debugger with edit-and-continue.
 
I generally recommend compiling your code on multiple compilers just
to avoid writing stuff that is VC/gcc/clang specific by accident. You
often get different strengths in the analysis of your code from
different toolchains, so it helps you fix little things before they
turn into big things.
--
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book <http://tinyurl.com/d3d-pipeline>
The Computer Graphics Museum <http://computergraphicsmuseum.org>
The Terminals Wiki <http://terminals.classiccmp.org>
Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com>
"Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com>: Sep 22 11:05AM -0700

On Monday, September 22, 2014 1:47:32 PM UTC-4, Richard wrote:
 
> While these sorts of things are great, they aren't refactorings. This
> may seem nitpicky, but it's important to be clear about what is code
> generation/assistance and what is refactoring.
 
I wasn't suggesting those were refactoring. I was suggesting that the
tool I remember using was mature enough to do those sorts of things
in addition to refactoring.
 
> often get different strengths in the analysis of your code from
> different toolchains, so it helps you fix little things before they
> turn into big things.
 
Agree. I currently develop primarily in Visual Studio 2008 or 98, and
compile my code often in Visual Studio 98, 2003, 2008, as well as GCC
4.8.1 or later.
 
GCC has proven a wonderful tool for finding very odd things in my code
that Visual Studio never even mentioned. GCC does have bugs, however,
and reports false positives on a handful of things.
 
I've never used clang and probably won't (because it's an Apple product
and has as its logo some kind of flying demon LOL -- same reason I
won't use python or a handful of others).
 
I am currently developing my own C compiler called RDC, and IDE called
JDebi in its current form, and ultimately Debi in its final form. I plan
to switch completely over to that once it is mature. I do not intend
to use any Microsoft, GNU, or other product thereafter except for those
which I haven't also yet written a replacement for.
 
Best regards,
Rick C. Hodgin
scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal): Sep 22 06:40PM


>I've never used clang and probably won't (because it's an Apple product
>and has as its logo some kind of flying demon LOL -- same reason I
>won't use python or a handful of others).
 
As for the first reason, LLVM is not an apple product, just a product
that apple uses (and contributes to).
 
As for the second reason, Huh?
Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com>: Sep 22 08:57PM +0200

On Mon, 22 Sep 2014 11:05:56 -0700 (PDT)
 
> I've never used clang and probably won't (because it's an Apple
> product and has as its logo some kind of flying demon LOL -- same
> reason I won't use python or a handful of others).
 
What about FreeBSD, Darwin and (OS X which is derived from them);)?
legalize+jeeves@mail.xmission.com (Richard): Sep 22 07:08PM

[Please do not mail me a copy of your followup]
 
"Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> spake the secret code
 
>I've never used clang and probably won't (because it's an Apple product
 
As others have mentioned, clang isn't an Apple product. It's open
source and Apple is a contributor, so is google, so are any number of
people/companies. Apple has chosen to use clang as it's primary
compiler in Xcode, but prior to that they used gcc.
--
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book <http://tinyurl.com/d3d-pipeline>
The Computer Graphics Museum <http://computergraphicsmuseum.org>
The Terminals Wiki <http://terminals.classiccmp.org>
Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com>
"Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com>: Sep 22 12:13PM -0700

On Monday, September 22, 2014 2:41:22 PM UTC-4, Scott Lurndal wrote:
> >won't use python or a handful of others).
 
> As for the first reason, LLVM is not an apple product, just a product
> that apple uses (and contributes to).
 
According to Wikipedia, clang was developed by Apple to be a drop-in
replacement for GCC. It uses LLVM as a back-end, and other companies
also contribute to it, but it is Apple's product.
 
> As for the second reason, Huh?
 
It relates to me being a Christian and that there are certain projects
I will not be a part of because of the spirit which operates at their
core. It's why I'm going the very very very hard way of creating LibSF
and writing all of my own code from the ground up. I want a foundation
that centers purposefully and solely around Jesus Christ in my life.
 
Flying demons? Snakes? Not for me. :-)
 
Best regards,
Rick C. Hodgin
scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal): Sep 22 02:45PM

>>>John Deere tractors
 
>> I'll take a Farmall super M over any JD anyday :-)
 
>And I'll take the gray 1950s Massey-Ferguson, thank you ...
 
Well, I learned to drive on a Farmall B, but also a MF 50, MF 65,
MF 180 and a Ford 8n. I do have a fond spot in my heart for the
MF series from the 1950/60's (which were red & grey, as I recall); I'm
even an investor in AGCO :-)
 
The MF65 hearse for my uncle:
 
http://www.lurndal.org/images/robert/dsc02939_small.jpg
 
Farmall M (powering the thresher) and Farmall super H (the farmall
B is pulling the rack).
 
http://www.lurndal.org/images/thresh2-300.jpg
"Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com>: Sep 22 08:51AM -0700

On Monday, September 22, 2014 10:45:25 AM UTC-4, Scott Lurndal wrote:
> The MF65 hearse for my uncle:
> http://www.lurndal.org/images/robert/dsc02939_small.jpg
 
Beautiful! :-)
 
> Farmall M (powering the thresher) and Farmall super H (the farmall
> B is pulling the rack).
 
> http://www.lurndal.org/images/thresh2-300.jpg
 
Love it. And the 1950?? Chevy pickup truck. :-)
 
Best regards,
Rick C. Hodgin
Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se>: Sep 22 07:06PM

On Mon, 2014-09-22, Scott Lurndal wrote:
> MF 180 and a Ford 8n. I do have a fond spot in my heart for the
> MF series from the 1950/60's (which were red & grey, as I recall); I'm
> even an investor in AGCO :-)
 
Had to look it up. My grandfather's Massey-Ferguson was a gray 1951
TEA-20. Bought used in 1956, when it replaced the horse. Nice machine
-- it saw use well into the 1990s.
 
http://snipabacken.se/~grahn/foton_fr_naglarp/379.12.5.jpg
 
 
> Farmall M (powering the thresher) and Farmall super H (the farmall
> B is pulling the rack).
 
> http://www.lurndal.org/images/thresh2-300.jpg
 
/Jorgen
 
--
// Jorgen Grahn <grahn@ Oo o. . .
\X/ snipabacken.se> O o .
Christopher Pisz <nospam@notanaddress.com>: Sep 22 10:35AM -0500

On 9/21/2014 2:45 AM, Paavo Helde wrote:
> "AP(unixpronospam@verizon.net)" <udtelco@gmail.com> wrote in
> news:463032a0-f557-463c-b1ee-bd3bec466ae5@googlegroups.com:
SNIP
> 'protected' data members is dicouraged anyway).
 
> Cheers
> Paavo
 
Who is discouraging the use of protected data members? No one has ever
discouraged me in my use of protected data members.
Paavo Helde <myfirstname@osa.pri.ee>: Sep 22 11:38AM -0500

Christopher Pisz <nospam@notanaddress.com> wrote in
>> having 'protected' data members is dicouraged anyway).
 
> Who is discouraging the use of protected data members? No one has ever
> discouraged me in my use of protected data members.
 
Well, I am! A protected data member can be changed by derived classes,
so the encapsulation is broken. Sometimes this makes sense, but more
often it is just abused (I know because I have abused the feature many
times myself).
 
See also:
 
"http://sundararajana.blogspot.com/2007/05/never-specify-public-or-protec
ted.html"
 
http://www.parashift.com/c++-faq/protected-interface.html
 
The "discouraged" vs "prohibited" bit:
 
http://www.parashift.com/c++-faq/protected-data-not-evil.html
 
Cheers
Paavo
Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid>: Sep 22 10:04AM

> literals appear in the C++14 standard, which is just about to be released.
> So it will probably take some years before all major C++ vendors have
> upgraded their compilers to support them.
 
C++14 is already out. Which vendors do not support it?
 
--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: news@netfront.net ---
Paavo Helde <myfirstname@osa.pri.ee>: Sep 22 11:15AM -0500

Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> wrote in
 
> C++14 is already out. Which vendors do not support it?
 
You can guess three times ;-) And yes, that's the one what OP is using
(although I hope he has moved forward from MSVC6 by now).
 
Cheers, Paavo
Robert Hutchings <rm.hutchings@gmail.com>: Sep 21 07:10PM -0700

On Sunday, September 21, 2014 4:27:13 PM UTC-5, David Brown wrote:
 
> but you have to register with a valid email (some people don't like
 
> that). Again, it's a fine choice to start with - people with unusual
 
> requirements might look elsewhere.
 
 
 
On Sunday, September 21, 2014 4:27:13 PM UTC-5, David Brown wrote:
 
> but you have to register with a valid email (some people don't like
 
> that). Again, it's a fine choice to start with - people with unusual
 
> requirements might look elsewhere.
 
 
 
On Sunday, September 21, 2014 4:27:13 PM UTC-5, David Brown wrote:
 
> but you have to register with a valid email (some people don't like
 
> that). Again, it's a fine choice to start with - people with unusual
 
> requirements might look elsewhere.
 
Test
Robert Hutchings <rm.hutchings@gmail.com>: Sep 21 07:21PM -0700

On Sunday, September 21, 2014 4:27:13 PM UTC-5, David Brown wrote:
 
> but you have to register with a valid email (some people don't like
> that). Again, it's a fine choice to start with - people with unusual
> requirements might look elsewhere.
 
OK, I tried to use Thunderbird in conjunction with news.eternal-september.org. I registered there and set up Thunderbird as the client and got to comp.lang.c++. Then, after I loaded 100 messages, I tried to REPLY to this post of yours, but it I think it just "went" to your email...??
David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no>: Sep 22 10:26AM +0200

On 22/09/14 04:21, Robert Hutchings wrote:
> as the client and got to comp.lang.c++. Then, after I loaded 100
> messages, I tried to REPLY to this post of yours, but it I think it
> just "went" to your email...??
 
The clue is that "reply" goes to email (yes, I got it) - you want
"followup" to follow up to the newsgroup. I am not going to claim that
this is the most intuitive terminology, but you get used to it.
Robert Hutchings <rm.hutchings@gmail.com>: Sep 22 06:23AM -0500

On 9/22/2014 3:26 AM, David Brown wrote:
 
> The clue is that "reply" goes to email (yes, I got it) - you want
> "followup" to follow up to the newsgroup. I am not going to claim that
> this is the most intuitive terminology, but you get used to it.
 
OK, this is "Follow Up"....
 
---
This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active.
http://www.avast.com
Robert Hutchings <rm.hutchings@gmail.com>: Sep 22 06:35AM -0500

On 9/22/2014 3:26 AM, David Brown wrote:
 
> The clue is that "reply" goes to email (yes, I got it) - you want
> "followup" to follow up to the newsgroup. I am not going to claim that
> this is the most intuitive terminology, but you get used to it.
 
Thanks David!!
 
---
This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active.
http://www.avast.com
David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no>: Sep 22 03:26PM +0200

On 22/09/14 13:23, Robert Hutchings wrote:
>> "followup" to follow up to the newsgroup. I am not going to claim that
>> this is the most intuitive terminology, but you get used to it.
 
> OK, this is "Follow Up"....
 
You are almost there - just one thing left to do. You should not bother
using a virus scanner for outgoing emails or usenet posts - if you've
got a virus, it is not going to pass itself through the scanner. And no
one is going to believe a sort-of signature claiming that the email is
virus-scanned, because viruses could easily spoof such a message. So
the virus scanner on outgoing mails and posts simply adds a slightly
silly advert to the bottom of all your posts.
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