Tuesday, August 15, 2017

Digest for comp.lang.c++@googlegroups.com - 18 updates in 3 topics

"R.Wieser" <address@not.available>: Aug 15 08:47AM +0200

Manfred,
 
> Fine with me, you managed to land into my killfile.
 
You do not seem to be willing to actually help me, so, as I posted earlier,
thats fine by me. Your kind of "help" sucks me dry, leaving me *very* tired
indeed. :-(
 
I still hope you will take a peek at how Kalle did/does it though.
 
Regards,
Rudy Wieser
 
 
Manfred <noname@invalid.add> schreef in berichtnieuws
omshik$r8n$1@gioia.aioe.org...
 
> <barking snipped>
 
> > I'm *definitily not* here for you to dictate what I need to write.
 
> > So far I have indulged you in the hope you would come to some conclusion
I
> > could use. But as you seem to be incapable/unwilling of doing so, I'm
going
> > to end our conversation here.
 
> Fine with me, you managed to land into my killfile.
 
> > Someone earier in this thread said "you get what you pay for". Boy, did
I
"Alf P. Steinbach" <alf.p.steinbach+usenet@gmail.com>: Aug 15 09:35AM +0200

On 8/15/2017 8:47 AM, R.Wieser wrote:
> Manfred,
 
>> Fine with me, you managed to land into my killfile.
 
> You do not seem to [...]
 
The person you're replying to doesn't see your message.
 
You can meaningfully address others who may be following the exchange,
but it's mostly meaningless to address a person who can't see your
posting. It COULD conceivably happen that someone else would quote your
text in its entirety, but that's a very slim chance.
 
Also, please stop top-posting, or bottom-quoting (whatever). At one
time, like twenty years ago, my Usenet signature about top-posting made
it into a database FAQ, of all things. Thought I should mention it, that
it's not so smart to insist on knowing better than the old-timers.
 
---
 
Now, you've been pretty secretive about the external COM-like objects
that you're dealing with. There are three and half main contenders:
actual COM objects, Java JNI objects, XCOM objects, and possibly
homegrown game support objects. Regardless, you should use the tools for
the kind that you're dealing with, to generate C and C++ interfaces that
correspond exactly to the binary level layout, and use the documentation
for that kind to figure out lifetime management and so on – it differs
greatly, depending on the kind of object.
 
For COM and XCOM use the MIDL compiler. It takes an IDL interface
definition as input and generates C and C++ code.
 
 
Cheers!,
 
- Alf
"Öö Tiib" <ootiib@hot.ee>: Aug 15 02:49AM -0700

On Tuesday, 15 August 2017 10:36:00 UTC+3, Alf P. Steinbach wrote:
 
> >> Fine with me, you managed to land into my killfile.
 
> > You do not seem to [...]
 
> The person you're replying to doesn't see your message.
 
The person you're replying to has several times expressed that he
expects direct one (or may be two) sentence answers to questions that
he asks. Any other form of communication than that will give him
grief, suck him dry, stick in his hair, make him very tired and so on.
So why you want to see him suffer like that? :)
"R.Wieser" <address@not.available>: Aug 15 12:33PM +0200

Alf,
 
> The person you're replying to doesn't see your message.
 
Do not confuse a promiss of doing something with actually doing it. :-)
 
Also, your reply to it makes sure he at least knows that it exists and even
gets the gist of it.
 
> Also, please stop top-posting, or bottom-quoting (whatever).
 
If I have to take your classification of my posting style as an example I'm
afraid you wouldn't recognise either even if it would spit you in the eyes
...
 
Can you make sense of what I'm saying ? Can you recognise whom I'm
responding to ? Can you recognise the (marked!) point where you really do
not need to continue reading anymore, as below it is aan integral copy of
the responded-to post ?
 
If so than stop complaining about someone not doing something exactly way
you prefer to see it. :-(
 
And yes, *you*. Do not confuse to be able to point to something someone has
written once as a right to force others to obey it. The word extremism is
not only applicable to religion (particulary including christianity) you
know. :-(
 
 
If you want to control how and what others may do than I suggest you set up
a moderated subforum (take CLAX86 for example). That way you can kick the
shit outof anyone not doing exactly what you want them to do. :-)
 
 
Also, why haven't you responded to my questions in my previous message to
you (GUI framework and other) ? If you want to be able to demand some kind
of behaviour from other people (in regard to some Usenet "rules" -- which,
with the absence of a policing body, can only be guidelines), than should
you than not be the first one to do so yourself (in regard to common
decency -- answering questions that directed to you in regard to comments
you made) ?
 
In short, when you're the pot you should definitily *not* be the one who
complains about the kettle being black. Right ? Right.
 
 
Furthermore, why do you think that repeating your stance while refusing to
even acknowledge a response to it the first time you posted it will gain you
any respect ? I've got news for you: It doesn't. Quite the reverse
actually.
 
Regards,
Rudy Wieser
 
 
-- Origional message:
Alf P. Steinbach <alf.p.steinbach+usenet@gmail.com> schreef in berichtnieuws
omu80f$si6$1@dont-email.me...
"R.Wieser" <address@not.available>: Aug 15 01:05PM +0200

嘱,
 
> The person you're replying to has several times expressed
> that he expects direct one (or may be two) sentence answers
> to questions that he asks.
 
Not quite. I do not expect a single line per se, I will even allow the
people who actually *help* me to use multiple lines (how's that for
arrogance ? And yes, in case you did not understand, that was a joke)
 
But the comparision between multiple full-page posts not even giving an
indication of working to *anything*, let alone an answer to the question
(effectivily saying nothing but for continued complaints about not having
enough information) and on the other hand someone who understood the
question enough to respond with a single line that was spot on is ...
remarkable to say the least, don't you think ?
 
If even if you multiple-full-page-of-saying-nothing responders could meet
Kalle's method a quarter of the way I would have a *much* larger chance of
actually getting an answer. I mean, any chance larger than Zero can be
considered "much larger", can't it ? :-)
 
>Any other form of communication than that will give him
> grief, suck him dry, stick in his hair, make him very tired
> and so on.
 
Newsflash: A cow is an animal. But not all animals are cows
 
Do I have to spell it out for you, or do you think you understand without me
doing so ? Good.
 
Regards,
Rudy Wieser
 
 
-- Origional message:
嘱 Tiib <ootiib@hot.ee> schreef in berichtnieuws
0ac6ad47-e227-4596-b5e2-74e007f182ee@googlegroups.com...
"Öö Tiib" <ootiib@hot.ee>: Aug 15 06:02AM -0700

On Tuesday, 15 August 2017 14:05:24 UTC+3, R.Wieser wrote:
> 嘱,
 
It wasn't written 嘱 (Chinese zhu') but Öö (two o's with diaeresis).
Whatever you use can't apparently parse unicode. Can you tell
what it is?
 
 
> Not quite. I do not expect a single line per se, I will even allow the
> people who actually *help* me to use multiple lines (how's that for
> arrogance ? And yes, in case you did not understand, that was a joke)
 
My whole reply to Alf to what you reply here was a joke. It had smiley
at end to indicate that. Why you erased it?
David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no>: Aug 15 04:30PM +0200

On 15/08/17 15:02, Öö Tiib wrote:
 
> It wasn't written 嘱 (Chinese zhu') but Öö (two o's with diaeresis).
> Whatever you use can't apparently parse unicode. Can you tell
> what it is?
 
He is using MS Outlook Express 5, from around 2000 if I am not mistaken.
This is long before MS accepted that there was anyone using anything
other than Windows and MS programs. Thus the encoding his messages use
is Windows-1251, not utf-8 like almost everyone else these days, and
because it is a Microsoft program from that era, the messages are not
marked with the encoding.
 
You are using Google Groups, which is an equally horrendous news client
(but bad in different ways). It appears unable to guess the correct
encoding, and assumes it is utf-8, resulting in messed up characters.
 
Ignoring the actual /content/ of Rudy's posts, which are a level of
arrogance and rudeness that I have rarely seen in newsgroups, the
letters of your name come through fine for me when read with
Thunderbird. It looks like the combination of two bad news clients is
needed for the problem.
"R.Wieser" <address@not.available>: Aug 15 06:13PM +0200

嘱,
 
> It wasn't written ? (Chinese zhu') but 嘱 (two o's with diaeresis).
 
Yep. And that I copy-pasted those two-o's-with-diaeresis from one place in
the message to the top. No idea why your browser makes a mess of it ?
 
> My whole reply to Alf to what you reply here was a joke.
 
Sure it was. But at whos expense ?
 
> It had smiley at end to indicate that. Why you erased it?
 
Yeah, directly following a line directed at somebody, but definitily not me.
 
Nope, I think you knew very well who your jab was aimed at -- and are now
trying to make it sound as if it wasn't ment that way.
 
Besides, you already showed that you you have no problem with sucking stuff
outof your thumb, and than tried to play it off as if it was the plain
truth -- and than drop the whole matter when you got challenged in that
regard. Nope, you lost my belief in your honesty by doing that.
 
But don't worry about that, you can just blacklist me too and just ignore
being caught out. :-)
 
Regards,
Rudy Wieser
 
 
-- Origional message:
嘱 Tiib <ootiib@hot.ee> schreef in berichtnieuws
d896c131-7f50-4f27-aa5c-c4e75c5e6438@googlegroups.com...
On Tuesday, 15 August 2017 14:05:24 UTC+3, R.Wieser wrote:
 
> Not quite. I do not expect a single line per se, I will even allow the
> people who actually *help* me to use multiple lines (how's that for
> arrogance ? And yes, in case you did not understand, that was a joke)
 
My whole reply to Alf to what you reply here was a joke. It had smiley
at end to indicate that. Why you erased it?
"Öö Tiib" <ootiib@hot.ee>: Aug 15 12:02PM -0700

On Tuesday, 15 August 2017 19:12:55 UTC+3, R.Wieser wrote:
 
> > It wasn't written 嘱? (Chinese zhu') but Öö (two o's with diaeresis).
 
> Yep. And that I copy-pasted those two-o's-with-diaeresis from one place in
> the message to the top. No idea why your browser makes a mess of it ?
 
Oh, sorry, David Brown explained it why it happens.
 
 
> > My whole reply to Alf to what you reply here was a joke.
 
> Sure it was. But at whos expense ?
 
You of course provide the whole comedy here.
 
 
> Yeah, directly following a line directed at somebody, but definitily not me.
 
> Nope, I think you knew very well who your jab was aimed at -- and are now
> trying to make it sound as if it wasn't ment that way.
 
Why? It was sure meant that way. I did not try to hide it.
Are you joking again? I may not laugh at you? :D
 
> regard. Nope, you lost my belief in your honesty by doing that.
 
> But don't worry about that, you can just blacklist me too and just ignore
> being caught out. :-)
 
Why should I blacklist anyone? If reading them is too boring then I can
always do something else.
 
"R.Wieser" <address@not.available>: Aug 15 10:47PM +0200

嘱,
 
> Oh, sorry, David Brown explained it why it happens.
 
Kiddo, you do not even seem to understand the difference between a
possibility and a proven fact.
 
For the rest, Good luck with your "jokes", and good luck with Alf and your
attempt to find a bystander so you can agree with each other how all you
guys did was right, and "that other" had everything wrong.
 
It doesn't take away the fact that you didn't understand the question
(though someone else had no problem with doing so), even though it was one
of the simpelest, most concise you could ever get. *And* it was even
accompanied with the relevant example code !
 
Kiddo, you might think the world of your prowess, but you've shown that it
doesn't ammount to much. And your "bedside manners" -- where you pull
stuff outof your ass ("wrappers" and "big mess") and present it as truth --
leaves something to be desired too.
 
Goodbye.
Rudy Wieser
 
P.s.
I've got a nice joke for you: I went to school for free. You on the other
hand went for nothing. :-) (here, have your smiley back) Its ofcourse
nasty to say, but as I've presented it as a joke ... lolsz ?
 
 
-- Origional message:
嘱 Tiib <ootiib@hot.ee> schreef in berichtnieuws
8579384a-fa1a-443c-8110-d38fe79d403e@googlegroups.com...
On Tuesday, 15 August 2017 19:12:55 UTC+3, R.Wieser wrote:
> 嘱,
 
> > It wasn't written ?? (Chinese zhu') but 嘱 (two o's with diaeresis).
 
> Yep. And that I copy-pasted those two-o's-with-diaeresis from one place
in
> the message to the top. No idea why your browser makes a mess of it ?
 
Oh, sorry, David Brown explained it why it happens.
 
> > My whole reply to Alf to what you reply here was a joke.
 
> Sure it was. But at whos expense ?
 
You of course provide the whole comedy here.
 
> > It had smiley at end to indicate that. Why you erased it?
 
> Yeah, directly following a line directed at somebody, but definitily not
me.
 
> Nope, I think you knew very well who your jab was aimed at -- and are now
> trying to make it sound as if it wasn't ment that way.
 
Why? It was sure meant that way. I did not try to hide it.
Are you joking again? I may not laugh at you? :D
 
> Besides, you already showed that you you have no problem with sucking
stuff
> regard. Nope, you lost my belief in your honesty by doing that.
 
> But don't worry about that, you can just blacklist me too and just ignore
> being caught out. :-)
 
Why should I blacklist anyone? If reading them is too boring then I can
always do something else.
 
woodbrian77@gmail.com: Aug 15 11:48AM -0700

On Monday, August 14, 2017 at 5:23:24 PM UTC-5, Nikki Locke wrote:
 
> If you know of a library which is not in the list, why not fill
> in the form at http://www.trumphurst.com/cpplibs/cppsub.php
 
> Maintainer: Nikki Locke - if you wish to contact me, please use the form on the website.
 
Feel free to add my messaging and serialization library to
your list -- https://github.com/Ebenezer-group/onwards
.
 
 
Brian
Ebenezer Enterprises - In G-d we trust.
http://webEbenezer.net
ruben safir <ruben@mrbrklyn.com>: Aug 15 01:18AM -0400

https://t.co/GOHa5sM6Cg
"Alf P. Steinbach" <alf.p.steinbach+usenet@gmail.com>: Aug 15 07:58AM +0200

On 8/15/2017 7:18 AM, ruben safir wrote:
> https://t.co/GOHa5sM6Cg
 
It's still amazing, every time, to observe how allegedly intelligent
mathematicians fail to come up with readable or self-describing names,
but instead choose hopeless single symbols from various alphabets.
 
One would think they were retarded, if it were not for the strong
association between mathematics and intelligence.
 
Still, I think they're generally retarded communications-wise, and that
this contributes much to the inaccessibility of Wikipedia pages about
math. Even the pages about basic stuff are pretty much impenetrable.
Apparently they simply don't grok how to communicate, or, more
basically, how knowledge and understanding evolves in the reader's mind.
 
 
Cheers!,
 
- Alf
David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no>: Aug 15 09:40AM +0200

On 15/08/17 07:58, Alf P. Steinbach wrote:
> math. Even the pages about basic stuff are pretty much impenetrable.
> Apparently they simply don't grok how to communicate, or, more
> basically, how knowledge and understanding evolves in the reader's mind.
 
That seems extremely harsh criticism. The paper is clearly not written
for /you/, or anyone else who is not already familiar with
graduate-level mathematics in the field of complexity theory. For
papers at this level, you might expect perhaps a dozen people in the
world will be able to read it reasonably fluently and understand it as
they do so - most experts in the same field will take days or weeks to
study through it to see how it works. It will be months, perhaps years,
before there is a consensus in the mathematical community about its
correctness and the almost inevitable small errors or missing
justifications. Proving P ≠ NP is a big deal - it is so important, and
so hard, that there is a million dollar prize resting on it.
 
Mathematicians have their own way of writing and their own symbolic
languages - just because /you/ don't understand them, does not make them
"hopeless" or "retarded". There is nothing in that article that is
remotely complex in the symbols. Beyond the first couple of pages, the
paper is way out of my league - but the use of symbols seems entirely
reasonable.
 
If I had one complaint, it would be that the text is too compact. The
paper would benefit from a good deal more white space and perhaps some
examples of the terms and definitions (mathematicians are rightly wary
of examples - it is too easy to assume generalisations from them).
 
This paper - if it is shown to be valid - is a milestone in the
computing world. If it is contains flaws, it will join the growing list
of failed proofs for P ≠ NP, but perhaps help someone else move forward.
"Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com>: Aug 15 03:08AM -0700

On Tuesday, August 15, 2017 at 1:18:52 AM UTC-4, ruben safir wrote:
> https://t.co/GOHa5sM6Cg
 
It will be of great interest to see if his paper holds up to scrutiny.
 
If it does hold up, in my lifetime, Fermat's Last Theorem will have
been proven, the Poincare Conjecture, and now potentially P vs NP,
among others. I do wonder if the Riemann Hypothesis will be solved
in my lifetime.
 
Thank you,
Rick C. Hodgin
Paavo Helde <myfirstname@osa.pri.ee>: Aug 15 03:25PM +0300

On 15.08.2017 8:58, Alf P. Steinbach wrote:
> math. Even the pages about basic stuff are pretty much impenetrable.
> Apparently they simply don't grok how to communicate, or, more
> basically, how knowledge and understanding evolves in the reader's mind.
 
Mathematicians have searched for best ways for representing their work
and communication for centuries. If the result seems incomprehensible to
you then it might be because you are not a mathematician or not doing
active research in mathematics.
 
It appears to me that you are confusing the mathematical language with a
programming language. Yes, in programming languages one needs to
maintain old code for many years, often without thorough understanding
how exactly it works. Using self-explanatory names helps with this task
(to some extent).
 
In maths, there is no such "maintenance" needed. The closest to
"maintenance" would be developing the theory further and to write a new
article based on the old one. But this is not possible without thorough
understanding of the topic. Once you have got the thorough understanding
then you already know the difference between Gothic D and Latin D, or
whatever other symbols, and using some long names instead of them would
just slow down both the author and the knowledgeable readers.
 
This does not mean mathematical markup cannot be enhanced, there are
many examples of this happening (Leibniz vs Newton, Einstein's summation
convention, Feynman diagrams, etc). However, replacing established
mathematical symbols with long descriptive names would not be an
enhancement, at least not for mathematicians themselves.
 
Cheers
Paavo
"Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com>: Aug 15 06:37AM -0700

On Tuesday, August 15, 2017 at 8:25:27 AM UTC-4, Paavo Helde wrote:
> convention, Feynman diagrams, etc). However, replacing established
> mathematical symbols with long descriptive names would not be an
> enhancement, at least not for mathematicians themselves.
 
The Julia programming language allows for unicode characters to be
used for variable names and in all text. You can create real var
names like the pi symbol, or delta, epsilon, etc.
 
I've actually thought that would be a neat feature in general.
 
Thank you,
Rick C. Hodgin
David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no>: Aug 15 04:43PM +0200

On 15/08/17 15:37, Rick C. Hodgin wrote:
> used for variable names and in all text. You can create real var
> names like the pi symbol, or delta, epsilon, etc.
 
> I've actually thought that would be a neat feature in general.
 
There are three major problems with unicode characters for identifier names.
 
One is that it is very difficult and inconvenient to type many of them,
especially for Windows users who have fewer symbols by default, usually
no dead keys or compose key, and no convenient way to add new symbols to
key combinations. You have to add additional keyboard layouts and
switch to Greek layouts (or Hebrew, or whatever has the symbols you
want). Or you have a character applet, or need an IDE with toolbars or
other support.
 
Second is that many fonts don't have many additional symbols, and many
editors can't handle font substitutions well.
 
And third, there are many unicode characters that look identical or very
similar. Should these be matched to the same identifier, or different
identifiers? The rules here would be a serious pain - should you map
"Greek capital letter alpha" Α to the same identifier as "Latin capital
letter A" A ?
 
 
It seems not unreasonable to allow unicode identifiers so that people
can write their code in their own language, but it is not without its
challenges.
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