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==============================================================================
TOPIC: Binary file IO: Converting imported sequences of chars to desired type
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.c++/t/690c45c0197f60ef?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Fri, Oct 30 2009 1:44 am
From: James Kanze

On Oct 29, 8:18 pm, Gerhard Fiedler <geli...@gmail.com> wrote:
> James Kanze wrote:
> >> Re the precision issue: When writing out text, there isn't
> >> really a need to go decimal, too. Hex or octal numbers are
> >> also text. Speeds up the conversion (probably not by much,
> >> but still) and provides a way to write out the exact value
> >> that is in memory (and recreate that exact value -- no
> >> matter the involved precisions).

> > But it defeats one of the major reasons for using text:
> > human readability.

> Not that much. For (casual, not precision) reading, a few
> digits are usually enough, and most people who read this type
> of output (meant to be communication between programs) are
> programmers, hence typically reasonably fluent in octal and
> hex. The most important issue is that the fields (mantissa
> sign, mantissa, exponent sign, exponent, etc.) are decoded and
> appropriately presented. Whether the mantissa and the exponent
> are then in decimal, octal or hexadecimal IMO doesn't make
> much of a difference.

Agreed (sort of): I thought you were talking about outputting a
hex dump of the bytes. Separating out the mantissa and the
exponent is a simple and rapid compromize: it's not anywhere
near as readable as the normal format, but as you say, it should
be sufficient for most uses by a professional in the field.
Having done that, however, I suspect that on most machines,
outputting the different fields in decimal, rather than hex,
would probably not make a significant different.

> Since what we're talking about is only relevant for huge
> amounts of data, doing anything more with that data than just
> a cursory look at some numbers (which IMO is fine in octal or
> hex) generally needs a program anyway.

One would hope that you could start debugging with much smaller
sets of data. And if you do end up one LSB off after reading,
you'll probably want to look at the exact value.

--
James Kanze

== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Fri, Oct 30 2009 2:37 am
From: Rune Allnor

On 30 Okt, 09:44, James Kanze <james.ka...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Oct 29, 8:18 pm, Gerhard Fiedler <geli...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > James Kanze wrote:
> > >> Re the precision issue: When writing out text, there isn't
> > >> really a need to go decimal, too. Hex or octal numbers are
> > >> also text. Speeds up the conversion (probably not by much,
> > >> but still) and provides a way to write out the exact value
> > >> that is in memory (and recreate that exact value -- no
> > >> matter the involved precisions).
> > > But it defeats one of the major reasons for using text:
> > > human readability.
> > Not that much. For (casual, not precision) reading, a few
> > digits are usually enough, and most people who read this type
> > of output (meant to be communication between programs) are
> > programmers, hence typically reasonably fluent in octal and
> > hex. The most important issue is that the fields (mantissa
> > sign, mantissa, exponent sign, exponent, etc.) are decoded and
> > appropriately presented. Whether the mantissa and the exponent
> > are then in decimal, octal or hexadecimal IMO doesn't make
> > much of a difference.
>
> Agreed (sort of): I thought you were talking about outputting a
> hex dump of the bytes.  Separating out the mantissa and the
> exponent is a simple and rapid compromize: it's not anywhere
> near as readable as the normal format, but as you say, it should
> be sufficient for most uses by a professional in the field.
> Having done that, however, I suspect that on most machines,
> outputting the different fields in decimal, rather than hex,
> would probably not make a significant different.
>
> > Since what we're talking about is only relevant for huge
> > amounts of data, doing anything more with that data than just
> > a cursory look at some numbers (which IMO is fine in octal or
> > hex) generally needs a program anyway.
>
> One would hope that you could start debugging with much smaller
> sets of data.  And if you do end up one LSB off after reading,
> you'll probably want to look at the exact value.

So what does text-based formats actually buy you?

- Files are several times larger than binary dumps
- IO delays are several times (I'd say orders) slower
for thext than for binary
- Human users don't benefit from the text dumps anyway,
since they are too large to be useful
- Human readers would have to make an effort to
convert text dumps to readable format

In the end, text formats require humans to do the same
work converting data to a readable format as would be
required with binary data, AND it provides file sizes
and IO delays as additional nuisances.

Rune

== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Fri, Oct 30 2009 4:35 am
From: Gerhard Fiedler

James Kanze wrote:

> On Oct 29, 8:18 pm, Gerhard Fiedler <geli...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> James Kanze wrote:
>>>> Re the precision issue: When writing out text, there isn't really a
>>>> need to go decimal, too. Hex or octal numbers are also text.
>>>> Speeds up the conversion (probably not by much, but still) and
>>>> provides a way to write out the exact value that is in memory (and
>>>> recreate that exact value -- no matter the involved precisions).
>
>>> But it defeats one of the major reasons for using text: human
>>> readability.
>
>> Not that much. For (casual, not precision) reading, a few digits are
>> usually enough, and most people who read this type of output (meant
>> to be communication between programs) are programmers, hence
>> typically reasonably fluent in octal and hex. The most important
>> issue is that the fields (mantissa sign, mantissa, exponent sign,
>> exponent, etc.) are decoded and appropriately presented. Whether the
>> mantissa and the exponent are then in decimal, octal or hexadecimal
>> IMO doesn't make much of a difference.
>
> Agreed (sort of): I thought you were talking about outputting a hex
> dump of the bytes. Separating out the mantissa and the exponent is a
> simple and rapid compromize: it's not anywhere near as readable as
> the normal format, but as you say, it should be sufficient for most
> uses by a professional in the field.

I think the biggest advantage of doing it this way is that the text
representation makes it portable between different binary floating point
formats, and that the octal or hex representation avoids any rounding
problems and maintains the exact value, independently of precision and
other details of the binary representation (on both sides).

> Having done that, however, I suspect that on most machines, outputting
> the different fields in decimal, rather than hex, would probably not
> make a significant different.

That may well be. But the rounding aspect is still a problem.

>> Since what we're talking about is only relevant for huge amounts of
>> data, doing anything more with that data than just a cursory look at
>> some numbers (which IMO is fine in octal or hex) generally needs a
>> program anyway.
>
> One would hope that you could start debugging with much smaller sets
> of data. And if you do end up one LSB off after reading, you'll
> probably want to look at the exact value.

Sure. You always can use debug flags for outputting debug values.

Gerhard

==============================================================================
TOPIC: mutual dependency
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.c++/t/c7c749b253887b89?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 4 ==
Date: Fri, Oct 30 2009 1:47 am
From: thomas

-------------code------------
class A{
public:
A(){}
void f(){
B *b = new B();
}
};

class B{
public:
B(){}
void f(){
A *a = new A();
}
};
---------------code------------
for the above sample code, there's compile error.
if I put a declaration "class B;" at the begining, it says that no
default constructor.
how to declare a default constructor to avoid the compile error?

== 2 of 4 ==
Date: Fri, Oct 30 2009 3:00 am
From: Saeed Amrollahi

On Oct 30, 11:47 am, thomas <freshtho...@gmail.com> wrote:
> -------------code------------
> class A{
> public:
>      A(){}
>      void f(){
>            B *b = new B();
>      }
>
> };
>
> class B{
> public:
>       B(){}
>       void f(){
>           A *a = new A();
>       }};
>
> ---------------code------------
> for the above sample code, there's compile error.
> if I put a declaration "class B;" at the begining, it says that no
> default constructor.
> how to declare a default constructor to avoid the compile error?

Hi Thomas

Put the definition of A::f() after the the defintion of B:

class A{
public:
A(){}
void f();
};

class B{
public:
B(){}
void f() {
A *a = new A();
}

};

void A::f()
{
B *b = new class B();
}

it compiles and works.

FYI, such mutual dependency isn't good sign of object-oriented design.

Regards,
-- Saeed Amrollahi

== 3 of 4 ==
Date: Fri, Oct 30 2009 5:21 am
From: Victor Bazarov

Saeed Amrollahi wrote:
> On Oct 30, 11:47 am, thomas <freshtho...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> -------------code------------
>> class A{
>> public:
>> A(){}
>> void f(){
>> B *b = new B();
>> }
>>
>> };
>>
>> class B{
>> public:
>> B(){}
>> void f(){
>> A *a = new A();
>> }};
>>
>> ---------------code------------
>> for the above sample code, there's compile error.
>> if I put a declaration "class B;" at the begining, it says that no
>> default constructor.
>> how to declare a default constructor to avoid the compile error?
>
> [..]
>
> FYI, such mutual dependency isn't good sign of object-oriented design.

Really? Why is that?

V
--
Please remove capital 'A's when replying by e-mail
I do not respond to top-posted replies, please don't ask

== 4 of 4 ==
Date: Fri, Oct 30 2009 6:05 am
From: Saeed Amrollahi

On Oct 30, 3:21 pm, Victor Bazarov <v.Abaza...@comAcast.net> wrote:
> Saeed Amrollahi wrote:
> > On Oct 30, 11:47 am, thomas <freshtho...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> -------------code------------
> >> class A{
> >> public:
> >>      A(){}
> >>      void f(){
> >>            B *b = new B();
> >>      }
>
> >> };
>
> >> class B{
> >> public:
> >>       B(){}
> >>       void f(){
> >>           A *a = new A();
> >>       }};
>
> >> ---------------code------------
> >> for the above sample code, there's compile error.
> >> if I put a declaration "class B;" at the begining, it says that no
> >> default constructor.
> >> how to declare a default constructor to avoid the compile error?
>
> > [..]
>
> > FYI, such mutual dependency isn't good sign of object-oriented design.
>
> Really?  Why is that?
>
> V
> --
> Please remove capital 'A's when replying by e-mail
> I do not respond to top-posted replies, please don't ask- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Hi Victor
I just mean, with a good design, we can avoid such mutual
dependencies.
I face with the following code patterns a lot of times:
class A {
B* pB;
};

class B {
A* pA;
};

with a review on class design I can avoid such "mutual" dependencies.

Regards,
-- Saeed Amrollahi

==============================================================================
TOPIC: c++0x pods and constructors
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.c++/t/5aa5848ff079613f?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 4 ==
Date: Fri, Oct 30 2009 2:04 am
From: James Kanze

On Oct 29, 11:49 pm, "dragan" <spambus...@prodigy.net> wrote:
> James Kanze wrote:
> > The difference between a POD and a non-POD is that a POD has
> > constructors and destructors which are effectively no-ops,
> > and an assignment operator which is the equivalent of
> > memcpy; this plays a role in various contexts.

> From N2960,

Note that N2960 is not the standard, but a draft for the next
version of the standard. In particular, it differs signficantly
from the current standard here (in wording---not in effect).

> I gather that a POD may not have user-defined:
> default constructor, copy constructor, copy assignment
> operator, destructor. In addition, it may not have virtual
> functions or virtual base classes, at most one base class and
> no non-static data members in the most-derived class. Other
> things too, but I find the aforementioned most important.

The current standard simply says that a POD must be an
aggregate; some of these requirements are part of being an
aggregate.

But you're formulating it backwards. In order to be a POD, a
class must have a trivial default constructor, a trivial copy
constructor, a trivial copy assignment operator and a trivial
destructor. If any of these is user defined, then it is by
definition non-trivial, but there are other ways for them to be
non-trivial or absent: a class with a deleted copy constructor,
for example (in the draft).

> So, the good news is, that seemingly a POD can have
> constructors other than the ones listed above

If you provide any constructor, the compiler no longer provides
the trivial default constructor---either you provide one (which
will be non-trivial), or there isn't one. Either way, the class
won't be a POD. (Or... I think you can tell the compiler to
provide one explicitly, and that might be trivial.)

> and can also have a non-virtual base class.

Yes, but either the base class or the class itself must be
empty, which sort of makes this provision useless.

> I'm not sure what "no non-static data members in the
> most-derived class" means exactly. The section needs more
> examples if you ask me.

It seems clear enough to me. Given a hierarchy (which may
consist of only a single class), there may be at most one class
in that hierarchy which has non-static data
members---non-static, because static data members don't affect
the layout in any way.

I think the original formulation was clearer, and the original
rules allowed an informal simplification: a POD is something you
could write in C. I'm not sure what we really gain by allowing
anything else. I understand the desire of separating "layout
compatibility" from POD-ness, since they affect different
operations (communication with other languages, memcpy-ability),
but in practice, I don't think it makes any difference.

--
James Kanze

== 2 of 4 ==
Date: Fri, Oct 30 2009 2:19 am
From: James Kanze

On Oct 29, 11:40 pm, "dragan" <spambus...@prodigy.net> wrote:
> Victor Bazarov wrote:
> > dragan wrote:
> >> Can C++0x PODs/aggregates have user-defined constructors
> >> and still be PODs/aggregates?

> > From [dcl.init.aggr]:
> > << 1 An aggregate is an array or a class (Clause 9) with no
> > user-provided constructors (12.1), no private or
> > protected non-static data members (Clause 11), no base classes (Clause
> > 10), and no virtual functions (10.3). >>

> > So, no, once you add a user-defined c-tor, it's not an
> > aggregate.

> I'm not sure what aggregates are good for.

Initialization syntax. The most important use is for arrays,
since you can let the compiler count the members when using
aggregate initialization, e.g.:

std::string const names[] = { "Abert", "Bertha", "Charles" ... } ;

It's also useful for structs, however, when you need static
initialization (especially for tables of structs), e.g.:

struct MapInit
{
char const* key;
int value;
};

MapInit const initTable[] =
{
{ "toto", 42 },
{ "titi", 0 },
// ...
};

> I think POD may be the key thing for layout compatibility with
> C and probably other languages. PODs no longer have to be
> aggregates in C++0x: they can have constructors, just not
> default or copy constructors, and no copy assignment operator.
> (N2690).

Layout compatibility is an awkward problem. C++ can mandate a
certain number of things with regards to how the C++ compiler
lays out data, but it can't mandate anything with regards to how
other languages layout data. In the end, it's a lot like the
``extern "C"'' fiasco: C++ requires a compiler to support it,
stating that functions declared ``extern "C"'' must be callable
from C (or something along those lines). Which is all nice and
fine, but what does it mean if the platform doesn't have a C
compiler? Or if it has several C compilers, with different
calling conventions?

In practice, of course, on most small and medium sized systems
today, the system ABI is defined in terms of C, which means that
there will be a C compiler, and all C compilers will use a
commun layout and common calling conventions, so the problem
doesn't come up; C is the lowest common denominator. If you
look at it closely, you'll see that the standard doesn't
actually give any guarantees with regards to standard layout and
other languages, for the reason stated above. There may be some
advanced programming techniques which depend on standard layout,
but for the everyday user, the only really significant
distinction is whether the class could be written in C or
not---if it could, it will be accessible from C, and probably
from most other languages as well (on typical small and medium
general purpose computers---I wouldn't count on it on
mainframes, nor for that matter on embedded systems); otherwise,
it won't be. (You may, of course, add non-virtual member
functions, including conversion operators, but not constructors,
destructors or assignment operators, without causing problems.)

The other thing that is often important is whether the class is
an aggregate which supports static initialization. But in
practice, the two overlap; there are very few cases where you
can use static aggregate initialization but couldn't write the
class in C. (The presence of a pointer to member in the class
would be an example of one.)

> >> How about conversion operators?

> > You can have conversion operators in an aggregate (according
> > to the definition), if other conditions are met.

> I assume in a POD also.

A conversion operator is just an ordinary member function.

--
James Kanze

== 3 of 4 ==
Date: Fri, Oct 30 2009 2:24 am
From: James Kanze

On Oct 29, 4:23 pm, Jerry Coffin <jerryvcof...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> In article <VV%Fm.41268$EU5.38...@newsfe05.iad>,
> spambus...@prodigy.net says...

> > Can C++0x PODs/aggregates have user-defined constructors and
> > still be PODs/aggregates? If not, why not? How about
> > conversion operators? And what is the difference between a
> > POD and an aggregate anyway?

> In C++ 0x, the definition of POD no longer includes the
> requirement that the class be an aggregate. Instead, it
> introduces a couple of new terms, "standard layout class" and
> "trivial class". A POD has to be both. A user-defined
> constructor (by itself) does _not_ prevent the class from
> being a POD -- but you have to be really careful. In
> particular, a non-trivial copy constructor or non-trivial
> destructor _does_ prevent it from being a trivial class (IOW,
> copying with memcpy/memmove should work correctly).

Attention: the requirement isn't that the class not have a
non-trivial X; it is that it have a trivial X. Thus, for
example:

struct S { S( int ); int i; };

doesn't have a non-trivial default constructor, but it doesn't
have a trivial one either, and thus, is not a POD. IIUC, in the
next version of the standard, you will be able to write:

struct S { S( int ); S() = default; int i; };

and it will have the required trivial default constructor.

> A standard layout class basically says it can't have virtual
> functions or virtual base classes, etc.

> As long as it fits both of those sets of restrictions, it's a
> POD. IOW, it _can_ have some "convenience ctors".

But IIUC, only if you ensure that it also has a trivial default
constructor. Which it won't have be default if you've provided
any other constructor.

--
James Kanze

== 4 of 4 ==
Date: Fri, Oct 30 2009 2:27 am
From: James Kanze

On Oct 29, 11:56 pm, "dragan" <spambus...@prodigy.net> wrote:
> Jerry Coffin wrote:

> That's good news. That a POD can be derived from another class
> is also good news. What kind of class it can be after derived
> though is still unclear to me: can it have non-static data
> members?

Only if it's empty itself.

> > Obviously I'm leaving out some of the details -- see N2960,
> > §9/5, 9/6 for the full details.

> I downloaded N2960. I like to think in terms of the things a
> POD can or cannot have rather than the lingo like: trivially
> copyable, trivial class, standard layout, and on and on. In
> another post I wrote my understanding of what is and isn't
> allowed.

The problem is that you can't express the requirements in terms
of can or cannot have. At least partially, you have to express
them in terms of "must have": a POD must have a trivial default
constructor, for example (which is not the same thing as not
having a non-trivial default constructor---you have three
possibilities: no default constructor, trivial default
constructor and non-trivial default constructor).

--
James Kanze

==============================================================================
TOPIC: difference between decorator and composite?
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.c++/t/dbbbdcb21a44ae08?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Fri, Oct 30 2009 2:50 am
From: thomas

about the two design patterns decorator and composite, both use the
tree structure.
I think they are very similar. Anyone can briefly tell the difference?

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Fri, Oct 30 2009 5:20 am
From: Victor Bazarov

thomas wrote:
> about the two design patterns decorator and composite, both use the
> tree structure.

Says who?

> I think they are very similar. Anyone can briefly tell the difference?

Have you tried asking in 'comp.software.patterns'? Or 'comp.object'?

V
--
Please remove capital 'A's when replying by e-mail
I do not respond to top-posted replies, please don't ask

==============================================================================
TOPIC: nike shoe (paypal payment)( www.brandtrade08.cn )
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.c++/t/a18303fae3b9c693?hl=en
==============================================================================

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==============================================================================
TOPIC: help with namespace/friend error
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.c++/t/5eded7db20190481?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Oct 30 2009 3:26 am
From: Michael Tsang

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Joe wrote:

>>
>> This means, you have to declare it yourself in AB before you define it
>> outside of it.
>
>
> How do I declare this before I define it? I thought that's what I was
> doing, declaring it within the namespace AB of the class BN, and of
> course it's defined elsewhere.
>
> Guess I still don't' understand about introducing a visible name into
> an enclosing scope (which I thought it was).

// BN.h
namespace AB {
class BN
{
public:
friend double test(double a, double b);
};
double test(double a, double b);
}
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Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux)

iEYEARECAAYFAkrqv00ACgkQG6NzcAXitM9V7ACfQ+/KIsAkKsz297+btbV+5l8+
X1UAnApoL5M7za2hOup0WhXmoQ5UVQrJ
=nfwQ
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==============================================================================
TOPIC: days and date types
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.c++/t/e8bb8723ba7eafa3?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Oct 30 2009 3:39 am
From: Michael Tsang

Hicham Mouline wrote:

> struct Date {
> int i;
> };
>
> struct Days {
> int i;
> };
>
>
> void f( Date d );
>
> ...
> const Days d = { 15 };
> f( d ); // compile-error
>

It's because you tried to pass a "const Days &"
to a "Date", and a "const Days &" cannot be converted to a "Date".

==============================================================================
TOPIC: value & default initialization, and copy initialization
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.c++/t/497940ea6f9d0edb?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Oct 30 2009 3:51 am
From: Michael Tsang

Default initialization means for non-class type, no initialization, for
class type, call the default constructor.

Value initialization means always call the default constructor, even for
non-class types, which are zero-initialized.

Copy initialization means calling the copy constructor, which is equal to
memcpy for POD-types.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: gcc compiler - debuging
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.c++/t/14527df8006fbb29?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Oct 30 2009 4:59 am
From: Juha Nieminen

Jorgen Grahn wrote:
> Yeah -- including that one I half-jokingly wanted to have in the
> standard library: assume(), hope() or jump_to_conclusion().

Actually an "assume()" function/keyword could be useful in that it
could help the compiler to perform better optimizations. For example,
you could have something like this:

void foo(double d)
{
assume(d >= 0.0);
double sd = std::sqrt(d);
....
}

If NDEBUG is not defined, the assume() would work as a regular
assert(). In either case the compiler could use it to optimize the
subsequent std::sqrt call because it can assume that d is always
non-negative.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: STL list gets cleared randomly
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.c++/t/c1d9b0f12b6cc65f?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Oct 30 2009 5:03 am
From: Juha Nieminen

Vladimir Jovic wrote:
>> Has anyone ever experienced this sort of error? Barring a problem with
>> VS .NET 2003 STL implementation, I'm starting to suspect stack
>> corruption.
>>
>
> This kind of problems are solvable with valgrind (if the stack
> corruption is really the problem).

As far as I can see, valgrind has not been ported to Windows (nor do I
know of any free alternative for Windows either).

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