Wednesday, January 25, 2023

Digest for comp.lang.c++@googlegroups.com - 22 updates in 4 topics

snipeco.2@gmail.com (Sn!pe): Jan 25 12:17AM

David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> wrote:

[...]

> give some useful insight into how the glitch could have occurred, or if
> such things have happened before, or if it should be reported back to
> news.eternal-september.org. That would be useful. Telling us again
 
If you read e-s.support you would know the definitive answer.
AIUI the overview database became desynchronised from the
main db (I don't know why). Ray, the admin, took the server
down for three hours to resynchronise. See:-

Message-ID: <m27cxipaip.fsf@raybanana.net>

<http://al.howardknight.net/?ID=167460564300>

--
^Ï^. Sn!pe – My pet rock Gordon just is.
 
"Germany is the leading European Power."
~ Slava Ukraini ~
David Ritz <dritz@mindspring.com>: Jan 24 08:25PM -0600

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On Tuesday, 24 January 2023 14:20 +0100,
in article <tqoluk$5cht$2@dont-email.me>,
 
>> I'm of the "Show Me" school. I do not care about spurious,
>> unsupported claims. The only glitch was human error.
 
> I'm sorry, but you are wrong.
 
While that may be possible, it is unlikely in this case. You, on the
other hand, are simply mistaken about what you believe you saw.
 
What, pray tell, is the M-ID for the original essay, as you observed
it on ES? Show me.
 
In this specific incidence, I have yet to see anything which supports
this notion. Show me.
 
> If you think servers - hardware and/or software - can never fail,
> you are naïve beyond comprehension.
 
I am not so inclined. Software and hardware failures are a certainty.
 
> in the perfection of all Usenet servers, then you should not be
> involving yourself in any kind of abuse resolution or advice. You
> should be asking questions first - not passing arbitrary judgement.
 
Being confused and intentionally spreading falsehoods are different
things. You are simply mistaken.
 
To review:
 
<02q63458-1orq-4135-9358-994371poq6o8@zvaqfcevat.pbz>
<(http://al.howardknight.net/?ID=167454810700
 
DR> Based on the References header of <JaMukkKxSBcM7VPWN@bongo-ra.co>
DR> (<http://al.howardknight.net/?ID=167449837100>):
DR>
DR> <36403165-3cf1-4b73-8ad1-da339b960339n@googlegroups.com>
DR> (<http://al.howardknight.net/?ID=167449810000>) posted to
DR> rec.arts.books, only: strictly limited to a single newsgroup by G2's
DR> http2nntp interface. The article was posted using the GG posting
DR> account associated with the valid ibshambat@gmail.com email address.
 
This is the essay, titled "Change and Choice" which appeared only in
rec.arts.books. This article never appeared in comp.lang.c++, except
as quoted, in full:
 
<02q63458-1orq-4135-9358-994371poq6o8@zvaqfcevat.pbz>
(<http://al.howardknight.net/?ID=167454810700>)
DR> <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com>": <tqbkrr$1ja1c$1@dont-email.me>
DR> (<http://al.howardknight.net/?ID=167449819800>) added comp.lang.c++.
DR> The troll includes the full quote of the original post. The
DR> information included in the From header, of this message, may or may
DR> not accurately reflect its origin.
 
I am asking you to show me the M-ID for the article, "Change and
Choice," in comp.lang.c++.
 
AGAIN, <36403165-3cf1-4b73-8ad1-da339b960339n@googlegroups.com> never
appeared in comp.lang.c++. No matter how long or hard one looks for
this article in comp.lang.c++, on any NNTP server, one will not find
it.
 
If you believe otherwise, show me; make me eat my words.
 
See <http://al.howardknight.net/?ID=167449819800>.
 
The followup, <tqbkrr$1ja1c$1@dont-email.me> was posted to
rec.arts.books, but with comp.lang.c++ appended to the Newgroup
header. NOTE: The subject was also changed to "Re: Compute Unique
Numbers in a Set".
 
See <http://al.howardknight.net/?ID=167449840700>.
 
NOTE: I am not calling anyone a troll. This followup, purporting to
be from Bonita.Montero@gmail.com, IS the troll: bait trailed behind a
boat, in order to catch fish. It was quite a success, as the bait was
taken, hook, line and sinker, by several of the unsuspecting, if
somewhat naïve readers of comp.lang.c++.
 
ADDITIONALLY, I have nothing to irrefutably identify this post as
actually being originated by Bonita.Montero@gmail.com, as ES users are
able to put pretty much whatever they desire into a From header. As
stated previously, it may or may not be from Bonita.
 
If it is from Bonita.Montero@gmail.com, fine. If not, and
Bonita.Montero@gmail.com is an address active and assigned to another
Gmail user, there may be a basis for forgery complaint.
 
DR> X-post continued in <tqbn12$1jgmh$1@dont-email.me>
DR> (<http://al.howardknight.net/?ID=167449840700>, from
DR> =?UTF-8?B?w5bDtiBUaWli?= <ootiib@hot.ee>). It is in this post that
DR> the erroneous claim, "I can find no server with 'quoted' post,"
DR> appears. (The quoted original text appeared only in rec.arts.books,
DR> not in comp.lang.c++.)
 
DB> And you thought it was necessary to quote the /entire/ post to make that
DB> comment?
 
<ea2f3bb3-532d-4014-9acd-24fe10a1feecn@googlegroups.com>
(<http://al.howardknight.net/?ID=167449849500>) posted only to
comp.lang.c++.
 
ÖT> BM probably made it up. I can find no server with "quoted" post.
 
As demonstrated, _this_ was the glitch. It involved neither software
nor hardware. This was a wetware glitch, likely based on a search in
the wrong newsgroup..
 
> Someone of the "Show me" school would ask for more information.
> You appear to be in the "Jump to conclusions" school.
 
My first request was for a vowel^W Message-ID. I then looked at the
headers of the article, to which I was replying, which told the story
in the References headers of <JaMukkKxSBcM7VPWN@bongo-ra.co>
(<http://al.howardknight.net/?ID=167449837100>).
 
References: <36403165-3cf1-4b73-8ad1-da339b960339n@googlegroups.com>
<tqbkrr$1ja1c$1@dont-email.me> <tqbn12$1jgmh$1@dont-email.me>
<ea2f3bb3-532d-4014-9acd-24fe10a1feecn@googlegroups.com>
<tqbrub$1kco3$1@redfloyd.dont-email.me> <Xl3lFrvdCHAcHgye5@bongo-ra.co>
<glAd6+V1QpMVQTwiD@bongo-ra.co> <tqed5k$mbn$1@gioia.aioe.org>
<7f79edd3-1735-4d01-9760-bd24db578e41n@googlegroups.com>
<tqgkfh$2j5t0$1@dont-email.me> <tqh1vj$1dnb$1@gioia.aioe.org>
<tqjaf1$33opo$1@dont-email.me>
<tqlkc2$148e$1@gioia.aioe.org> <tqm247$3kqcf$2@dont-email.me>
 
Notice, the thread begins with the "Change and Choice" article, posted
via Google Groups. This article appears only in rec.arts.books.
 
Keep in mind, many NNTP clients use the Reference header for the purpose of
threading. It's fairly cheap, as the References are an overview header,
like the From, Message-ID, and Xref headers.
 
> There are limits to how much I can "show you" what happened.
 
You don't have much to show me, then, do you?
 
> But I can describe things in as much detail as practical.
 
Your descriptions must be taken with a grain of salt, as I am unable
to verify your interpretation.
 
> I use news.eternal-september.org as a Usenet server, with Thunderbird as
> the client.
 
Both are irrelevant.
 
> I am currently looking at the thread with subject "Re:
> Compute Unique Numbers in a Set" started (via a cross-post from
> comp.lang.c) on 08.01.2023.
 
This is a different thread. It is completely unrelated to my
examination, here.
 
Human readable Subjects are included for humans. M-IDs and References
are included so that machines and processes can work with them.
 
> comp.lang.c++. The penultimate post in the branch was made by Bonita
> 18.01.2023, 18:23, message id "tq99tp$vtqp$1@dont-email.me". Everything
> looks normal.
 
As noted, that was a different thread.
 
> When downloading message headers, the next message on the thread appears
> to be the expected reply from Muttley. It has the same subject, and the
> timestamp 19.01.2023, 10:31.
 
I don't particularly care, as its a different thread. The troll changed the
Subject, to "Re: Compute Unique Numbers in a Set." This does not make it
part of the same references based thread. You were trolled by a Subject
line modification.
 
> "36403165-3cf1-4b73-8ad1-da339b960339n@googlegroups.com", there are no
> reference links to the other messages in the thread. The message contains
> a rambling essay.
 
So what? It's the beginning of a new, completely unrelated thread.
 
> The body of the quotation is the rambling essay. This is entirely
> consistent with Bonita's post - she replied to what she believed to be a
> message from Muttley.
 
It's in the new tread, which began in rec.arts.books.
 
> It is quite clear that there has been a glitch on the
> news.eternal-september.org server.
 
I'm not seeing it. Say it again, that's sure to change my response.
 
> delivered as though it matched the normal-looking pre-downloaded header in
> the thread. (I'm guessing Muttley actually made a post in the original
> thread, but I am unable to see the real message body.)
 
Please see my headers, regarding invalid assumptions.
 
There was no link, beyond a Subject change in the X-posted troll.
 
> post in rec.arts.books, made by Ilya Shambat - it was a real post, but on
> news.eternal-september.org the message body was accidentally attached to
> the wrong header summaries for comp.lang.c++.
 
Show me. (While I have access to several Usenet servers, I do not
have an account with Ray.)
 
> conversation. It is possible that you have experiences or knowledge that
> could help explain things - but if you think you know all the answers
> before you've heard the question, there's no point in commenting.
 
You're here, theoretically in order to learn from my experience and
expertise. I read headers. I try to steer clear of idle speculation.
 
The References, in the original Compute Unique Numbers thread, do not
appear in the headers of this or any other message, which begins with
"Change and Choice" based thread, beginning with
<36403165-3cf1-4b73-8ad1-da339b960339n@googlegroups.com>
(<http://al.howardknight.net/?ID=167449810000>). Look at the
References.
 
You were trolled. Get over it.
 
- --
David Ritz <dritz@mindspring.com>
Never underestimate the gullibility of the average user.
 
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David Ritz <dritz@mindspring.com>: Jan 24 08:30PM -0600

On Tuesday, 24 January 2023 17:47 -0000,
in article <B1jyOFXZ9kwyO2oB1@bongo-ra.co>,
Spiros Bousbouras <spibou@gmail.com> wrote:
 
[...]
 
> It could be a Thunderbird issue.
[...]
 
Keep guessing.
 
--
David Ritz <dritz@mindspring.com>
"Blues is easy to play, but hard to feel." - Jimi Hendrix (1942-70)
David Ritz <dritz@mindspring.com>: Jan 24 08:31PM -0600

On Tuesday, 24 January 2023 18:50 -0000,
in article <tLVzL.775660$GNG9.378305@fx18.iad>,
 
> Does eternel-september.org honor cancels?
 
This, like the vast majority of this thread, is irrelevant.
 
--
David Ritz <dritz@mindspring.com>
Be kind to animals; kiss a shark.
Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com>: Jan 24 08:07PM -0800

> Scott Lurndal <scott@slp53.sl.home> wrote:
 
>> Does eternel-september.org honor cancels?
 
> This, like the vast majority of this thread, is irrelevant.
 
It's certainly irrelevant to comp.lang.c++. I suggest
dropping comp.lang.c++ from any replies and posting only to
news.admin.net-abuse.usenet.
 
Personally, I didn't see the beginning of this brouhaha, since I've
blocked Bonita's posts, but when I saw the discussion I made an
initial assumption about what had happened. Having followed the
discussion, it appears that *either* a particular user created a
forgery *or* a server glitch made it appear that way.
 
I do not care which. I ask those who do to discuss it elsewhere.
 
(If this was trolling, it was spectacularly successful.)
 
--
Keith Thompson (The_Other_Keith) Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com
Working, but not speaking, for XCOM Labs
void Void(void) { Void(); } /* The recursive call of the void */
"Adam H. Kerman" <ahk@chinet.com>: Jan 25 05:02AM

>forgery *or* a server glitch made it appear that way.
 
>I do not care which. I ask those who do to discuss it elsewhere.
 
>(If this was trolling, it was spectacularly successful.)
 
You crossposted and posted off topic and troll fed to ask other people
to stop crossposting and to stop posting off topic and to stop troll
feeding.
James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu>: Jan 25 12:10AM -0500

On 1/24/23 21:25, David Ritz wrote:
 
>> I'm sorry, but you are wrong.
 
> While that may be possible, it is unlikely in this case. You, on the
> other hand, are simply mistaken about what you believe you saw.
 
He's posted a screenshot of what he "believes" he saw. Do you claim that
the screenshot is a forgery?
 
Snipe posted a message pointing out that the newsgroup
eternal-september.support had messages in it from the system
administrators acknowledging that there had been some server glitches
recently.
 
Looking at that newsgroup, it appears that they've had a flurry of
messages about a variety of server problems for a week now, and took the
server down to resolve the problems a few days ago. As far as I can
tell, they do not mention this particular glitch in that newsgroup, but
the other glitches they've had around the same time makes it more
plausible that this particular incident may also have been the result of
a server glitch.
 
> What, pray tell, is the M-ID for the original essay, as you observed
> it on ES? Show me.
 
According to David's own message with the ID
<tqoluk$5cht$2@dont-email.me>
 
the message-id was
36403165-3cf1-4b73-8ad1-da339b960339n@googlegroups.com
 
Which matches exactly the message id you give:
 
 
> This is the essay, titled "Change and Choice" which appeared only in
> rec.arts.books. This article never appeared in comp.lang.c++, except
> as quoted, in full:
 
Since David asserted that what he saw was a message header list that
matched the message actually posted by Muttley to comp.lang.c++, and
that the corresponding message body had headers that matched the message
actually posted by Ilya Shambat to rec.arts.books, that is consistent
with what you saw.
What newsserver did you use to view those messages? If the server
problems mentioned in eternal-september.support are in fact relevant,
you SHOULDN'T be seeing the same thing he does, unless you're using
eternal-september as your server.
I didn't see that message, despite the fact that I do use
eternal-september.org, but that's because Muttley's on my killfile, so I
can't personally confirm what David is saying.
David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no>: Jan 25 09:43AM +0100

On 25/01/2023 01:17, Sn!pe wrote:
> down for three hours to resynchronise. See:-
 
> Message-ID: <m27cxipaip.fsf@raybanana.net>
 
> <http://al.howardknight.net/?ID=167460564300>
 
Thanks for that. That confirms the matter - it was a server glitch,
which confused people and led to inappropriate posts, misunderstandings
and unfounded accusations. And the newsserver admin is dealing with it.
 
I'd rather not get involved in the e-s.support group - it is not
something I am particularly interested in or knowledgeable about. But
if you think anything I wrote previously in this thread describing the
symptoms, or the screenshot I posted, would be of any help to Ray then
please feel free to pass it on to him.
David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no>: Jan 25 10:56AM +0100

On 25/01/2023 03:25, David Ritz wrote:
 
(snipping a bit for brevity)
 
 
>> I'm sorry, but you are wrong.
 
> While that may be possible, it is unlikely in this case. You, on the
> other hand, are simply mistaken about what you believe you saw.
 
Again, you are wrong. I am not mistaken, and this has been confirmed in
several ways. Please read my other posts in this thread to see my
descriptions of the problem and how it appeared, details of the message
ID's, a description of how to replicate the issue, and a screenshot
showing it.
 
Oh, wait - you /did/ read them, as you quoted them below. And yet you
deny them blindly.
 
There was also a post from Sn!pe confirming that the admin of the
news.eternal-september.org was aware there had been a synchronisation
issue between the overview database and the main message database on
that server - /exactly/ the kind of server glitch that could lead to the
effect seen.
 
> What, pray tell, is the M-ID for the original essay, as you observed
> it on ES? Show me.
 
See above - I did.
 
 
>> If you think servers - hardware and/or software - can never fail,
>> you are naïve beyond comprehension.
 
> I am not so inclined. Software and hardware failures are a certainty.
 
And yet you conclude - with certainty - that there was no failure here?
 
>> should be asking questions first - not passing arbitrary judgement.
 
> Being confused and intentionally spreading falsehoods are different
> things. You are simply mistaken.
 
Fair enough.
 
 
> This is the essay, titled "Change and Choice" which appeared only in
> rec.arts.books. This article never appeared in comp.lang.c++, except
> as quoted, in full:
 
Incorrect. You are mistaken.
 
The article did not appear in comp.lang.c++ on any of the newsservers
/you/ looked at. It /did/ appear in comp.lang.c++ on
news.eternal-september.org.
 
I do not know if it also appears in rec.arts.books on
news.eternal-september.org - I have not looked at that group.
 
 
(It also appeared in a quotation in the post made by Bonita. That was
made as a normal post by Bonita, quoting the message as it appeared on
news.eternal-september.org.)
 
> appeared in comp.lang.c++. No matter how long or hard one looks for
> this article in comp.lang.c++, on any NNTP server, one will not find
> it.
 
Incorrect. Again, you are mistaken. It appears on the server
news.eternal-september.org in the group comp.lang.c++, exactly as I said
it does. This is the result of a server glitch - a synchronisation
issue between the overview database and the main database.
 
I believe I am safe in asserting that you have not checked /every/ NNTP
server for this post. In particular, I am entirely confident that you
have not looked on the relevant server - news.eternal-september.org.
 
 
> If you believe otherwise, show me; make me eat my words.
 
I have shown you. I have given a screenshot, and detailed instructions
on how to see the problem for yourself. That requires you to make an
account on news.eternal-september.org so that you can see the problem there.
 
I hope that you will do so. You will learn a little about what can go
wrong in Usenet servers, and perhaps also why it is not good to jump to
conclusions or make too many claims before you have looked at the details.
 
 
> See <http://al.howardknight.net/?ID=167449819800>.
 
I am aware of how the messages appear on other servers (I used Google
Groups to check, for practical convenience). Other servers did not see
the mismatch between the overview header and the message body.
 
 
> If it is from Bonita.Montero@gmail.com, fine. If not, and
> Bonita.Montero@gmail.com is an address active and assigned to another
> Gmail user, there may be a basis for forgery complaint.
 
We are familiar with Bonita in comp.lang.c++. Yes, she posted it. No,
it was not a troll - it was a somewhat snarky response to what she
thought was a mixed up post by Muttley. There are plenty of people here
who dislike some of Bonita's habits - but I have no doubts at all that
she genuinely believed Muttley had written that rambling essay for
rec.arts.books, and had accidentally cross-posted it to comp.lang.c++.
I thought so too, when I first saw it - people accidentally posting to
the wrong group is much more common than server glitches.
 
Bonita is guilty of blindly quoting an entire OT post and top-posting a
one-line comment on it. That's not good Usenet etiquette. But it was
not trolling, forgery, or intentional misrepresentation - and I do not
like to see anyone falsely accused of that. It is correct that Muttley
did not write the original essay - and it is therefore incorrect for
Bonita's post to have the attribution "Muttley wrote ...". But that
attribution is because the newsserver Bonita used,
news.eternal-september.org, had attached the essay message body to the
overview header of a post Muttley /did/ write.
 
 
 
> As demonstrated, _this_ was the glitch. It involved neither software
> nor hardware. This was a wetware glitch, likely based on a search in
> the wrong newsgroup..
 
Incorrect. Again, people who are not using news.eternal-september.org
did not see the quoted post. People who use news.eternal-september.org,
did see it.
 
 
>> There are limits to how much I can "show you" what happened.
 
> You don't have much to show me, then, do you?
 
I later found I could show you more - including a screenshot for your
convenience.
 
>> But I can describe things in as much detail as practical.
 
> Your descriptions must be taken with a grain of salt, as I am unable
> to verify your interpretation.
 
No salt is needed. Unless you have already jumped to a conclusion and
are unwilling to look at evidence and information, then you should have
realised that my experience of the post is different from yours. This
should lead to a line of inquiry of /why/ it is different. Was it a
temporary thing? Something local to my computer? An issue with my
newsreader client, or with the server I used? How many people saw what
I saw, how many saw something different? What are the common factors
distinguishing the groups?
 
Of course, that requires you to be of the "Sometimes I don't know
everything" and "Sometimes different people see different things"
schools. Being of the "Show me" school doesn't help if you are not
willing to look when people show you.
 
 
I had already figured out, before the thread was cross-posted to
news.admin.net-abuse.usenet, that this was a server glitch that had not
propagated to all servers - though I did not know at the time that it
was found only on the one news.eternal-september.org server.
 
 
 
>> I use news.eternal-september.org as a Usenet server, with Thunderbird as
>> the client.
 
> Both are irrelevant.
 
Nope. Wrong again.
 
It quickly became clear that the client did not matter - it was
coincidence that the three people who saw the mismatched post used
Thunderbird. But the /server/ - that is critical.
 
>> comp.lang.c) on 08.01.2023.
 
> This is a different thread. It is completely unrelated to my
> examination, here.
 
It is a different thread, yes. It is absolutely critical to the matter,
as it is in /that/ thread that the mismatched post appeared.
 
You'd know that if you followed my suggestions and looked for yourself.
 
 
>> It is quite clear that there has been a glitch on the
>> news.eternal-september.org server.
 
> I'm not seeing it. Say it again, that's sure to change my response.
 
It is quite clear that there has been a glitch on the
news.eternal-september.org server. You can look at Sn!pe's post, and
the link he has to a message from the admin of that server, discussing
the glitch on the server.
 
I am really hoping your response has changed by now.
 
>> the wrong header summaries for comp.lang.c++.
 
> Show me. (While I have access to several Usenet servers, I do not
> have an account with Ray.)
 
Right. So the one server where there is a problem that you could easily
see, you have not looked at. And yet you feel confident in claiming
there is no problem with that server.
 
The issue is still there - I checked anew with a fresh pan installation
on a different machine. You have to connect to the server you claimed
is irrelevant, and look at the thread you claimed is irrelevant. Or is
"Show me" just a mantra to you, rather than something you actually want?
 
 
>> before you've heard the question, there's no point in commenting.
 
> You're here, theoretically in order to learn from my experience and
> expertise. I read headers. I try to steer clear of idle speculation.
 
And yet you are idly speculating that I am wrong, every piece of
evidence and guidance I gave is irrelevant, and that your experience and
expertise lets you pronounce judgements without looking at what has
happened.
 
No, /I/ did not come to this group for your expertise and experience.
Someone else in comp.lang.c++ made the cross-post, hoping for ideas.
Sn!pe's post is an example.
 
Now, I am sure you have plenty of expertise and experience in Usenet and
the servers - I just use it, I don't run a server. However, it seems
this particular case is outside your experience - /you/ have the chance
to learn here. That's great, of course, if you are open to it. None of
us are so good at anything that we can't learn more. It turns out that
what appears to be your usual investigative process, with a focus on
message ids, let you down in this case.
 
 
> You were trolled. Get over it.
 
You were wrong. Learn from it.
Richard Harnden <richard.nospam@gmail.com>: Jan 25 01:00PM


> I never wrote any such thing. The only post I've seen is Bonita "reposting"
> something I apparently wrote. Either she wrote it herself or someone spoofed
> by id which is hardly hard to do on usenet.
 
The orginal post, "Change and Choice" on rec.arts.books is dated Thu, 19
Jan 2023 09:42:01 +0000
 
Bonita's follow-up and x-post has an attribution line of "Am 19.01.2023
um 10:31 schrieb Muttley@dastardlyhq.com:"
 
So, the attribution line is wrong - since there are no 49min time-zones.
 
Bonita forging/over-typing that, for whatever reason, is more likely
than a server/client glitch.
David Ritz <dritz@mindspring.com>: Jan 25 10:39AM -0600

On Tuesday, 24 January 2023 20:46 +0100,
in article <tqpcje$8v5p$3@dont-email.me>,
> the link, then I can happily email the screenshot. But it seems a
> quick and easy way to make a link to the screenshot.
 
> <https://paste.pics/b4149f38abb4e210da0a71886714d014>
 
It appears that Thunderbird and/or Pan is/are playing silly buggers
with threading. We'd have a better idea of what was going on, if the
display headers included the Newsgroups information.
 
Better still, what do you see, when you look at the headers? What do
you see in the Newsgroups header? What do you see in the Xref header?
(The Xref header is added by the NNTP server, from which the article
is being retrieved.)
 
If only rec.arts.books is listed in the Xref header, that article
appears only there on the ES spool. If comp.lang.c++ is also
included, it indicates a server side error.
 
Speaking of Thunderbird flakiness, while "Re. Compu..." appears in the
article list, while the Subject of the displayed article clearly shows
"Change and Choice."
 
--
David Ritz <dritz@mindspring.com>
Be kind to animals; kiss a shark.
James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu>: Jan 25 02:51PM -0500

On 1/25/23 11:39, David Ritz wrote:
> On Tuesday, 24 January 2023 20:46 +0100, in article
> <tqpcje$8v5p$3@dont-email.me>, David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no>
> wrote:
...
 
> It appears that Thunderbird and/or Pan is/are playing silly buggers
> with threading. We'd have a better idea of what was going on, if the
> display headers included the Newsgroups information.
 
 
The level of the headers displayed is adjustable. In the screenshot he
posted, the little down arrow next the the headers shown would have
caused it to expand, to show the newsgroups. It would have been better
if David had done so, and expanded the header section to make sure all
headers were visible. However, it is sufficient to note that the
newsgroup currently being viewed is displayed at the top of the window,
and the screen shot he posted makes it clear that the newsgroup is
comp.lang.c++. If Bonita saw the same thing, she would have had no
reason to suspect that the message body had actually been posted to a
different newsgroup.
 
If you want to talk about what he could have done, he could have
configured the newsgroup section to show a larger selection of the
message headers. Thunderbird allows you to select about 8 of the message
headers for display.
 
...
> Speaking of Thunderbird flakiness, while "Re. Compu..." appears in the
> article list, while the Subject of the displayed article clearly shows
> "Change and Choice."
 
That's not Thunderbird flakiness, that's Thunderbird responding to the
server glitch. All of the information in the newsgroup section at the
top of the window is from the header summary. The highlighted line
describes Muttley's message. The four headers on display at the top of
the message section at the bottom of the window are from the message
body, which is from Ilya Shambat's message. You can see that the first
three (Subject, Author, and Date) do not match what's shown in the
newsgroup section. The header summary is supposed to match the message
body; it's not a bug if Thunderbird deals poorly with a case that's not
supposed to happen. Arguably, showing both sets of information is more
useful, because it makes it easier to notice that there's a discrepancy.
James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu>: Jan 25 02:52PM -0500

On 1/25/23 08:00, Richard Harnden wrote:
...
 
> So, the attribution line is wrong - since there are no 49min time-zones.
 
> Bonita forging/over-typing that, for whatever reason, is more likely
> than a server/client glitch.
 
The time that Bonita posted is the time for the message that Muttley
posted to comp.lang.c. It shows up as such in the header summary that
eternal-september.org sends to Thunderbird. The corresponding message
body is the message body for Ilya Shambat's message, and contains a
header indicating the time at which he posted that message. Dave Brown
looked at both and compared them. So are you claiming that Dave lied
about what he says he saw in the message headers and corresponding
message body served up by eternal-september.org? If so, why do you think
that?
 
Or are you claiming that Bonita hacked eternal-september.org to make it
give him the evidence he saw? Such a hack would, legitimately, qualify
as a server-glitch, and would therefore not refute his assertion that
there was such a glitch.
Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com>: Jan 25 02:13PM -0800

> give him the evidence he saw? Such a hack would, legitimately, qualify
> as a server-glitch, and would therefore not refute his assertion that
> there was such a glitch.
 
I suspect that Bonita's cat walked over the keyboard and somehow put a spurious
message into comp.lang.c++.
Spiros Bousbouras <spibou@gmail.com>: Jan 25 10:58PM

On Tue, 24 Jan 2023 20:46:54 +0100
> broken post - I have made no such suggestion, precisely because I /can/
> replicate it. I still see it on two different computers with
> Thunderbird, and now also with Pan.
 
I thought so because it is one of the first things you should have mentioned
in the very first post you talked about a server glitch. You are a technical
person , you *know* that for bugs , glitches , etc. one ideally should
mention precise steps which would allow one to reproduce the problem. So I
can't imagine what you were thinking in failing to do so. It couldn't have
been for lack of time because you posted some very long responses which were
light on technical content but made no mention whatsoever of the very
important fact that you could consistently reproduce the problem. In fact ,
in at least 4 posts you said "a server fault" or something analogous without
mentioning that there was one specific server on which you saw the issue. I
was actually wondering what the hell was happening and you weren't giving
specifics.
 
> link, then I can happily email the screenshot. But it seems a quick and
> easy way to make a link to the screenshot.
 
> <https://paste.pics/b4149f38abb4e210da0a71886714d014>
 
This isn't very helpful and in particular it doesn't help to distinguish
whether it's a server issue or a Thunderbird issue. Just because Thunderbird
threads posts in a certain way or puts some post under a certain group ,
does not imply that the server has the same view of things. Perhaps Thunderbird
received correct responses from the server and messed things up. Below I will
give 2 precise ways to reproduce the problem which clearly show that it's an
eternal-september issue. Before doing so I will note that when you want to
talk about the date of a message it is best to quote the following 2 lines from
the header
 
Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2023 01:42:00 -0800 (PST)
Injection-Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2023 09:42:01 +0000
 
instead of saying for example (from <tqoluk$5cht$2@dont-email.me>)
"timestamp 19.01.2023, 10:31" .If Thunderbird does not allow you to see the
header exactly as it received it from the server then it's no good for
diagnosing issues.
 
 
For both of the following methods one must have an eternal-september account
since this is the server which displays the issue.
 
Method 1
 
You need to have the lynx text based browser installed. You do
 
lynx news://news.eternal-september.org/comp.lang.c++/137660-137665
 
.This asks lynx to contact news.eternal-september.org and fetch article
numbers 137660-137665 from the group comp.lang.c++ .Note that article
numbers are server and group specific , a different server might not have
articles with such numbers or they might refer to different posts. But the
important point here is that whatever posts the server returns , they must
have been posted to comp.lang.c++ , possibly among other groups. The first
post you will see is
 
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2023 01:42:00 -0800 (PST)
Message-ID: <36403165-3cf1-4b73-8ad1-da339b960339n@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Change and Choice
From: Ilya Shambat <ibshambat@gmail.com>
 
.Note that it was not (cross)posted on comp.lang.c++ so it should have
never been returned. The last post you will see in the above list is
 
=====
From: Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books,comp.lang.c++
Subject: Re: Compute Unique Numbers in a Set
Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2023 15:42:54 +0100
Message-ID: <tqbkrr$1ja1c$1@dont-email.me>
References: <36403165-3cf1-4b73-8ad1-da339b960339n@googlegroups.com>
 
[...]
 
Are you the twin-brother of Amine Moulay Ramdane ?
 
Am 19.01.2023 um 10:31 schrieb Muttley@dastardlyhq.com:
[...]
=====
 
.This correctly appears in the response by the server since it was crossposted
on comp.lang.c++ .
 
Method 2
 
You have to run a Python script which I will give below. It runs on Python
2.5 .Yes it's an old version but it's the only one I have handy and I haven't
bothered to learn Python 3.whatever .But the script should run on the newest
Python with little or no modifications. You run the script with
 
python path-to-script username password
 
where username and password are the ones you have for eternal-september .
The script will append its output to file /tmp/server-glitch-2 .
 
==== Script starts on the next line
import os
import string
import sys
import nntplib
import datetime
 
class TerminateError(Exception) :
def __init__(self , message) :
self.mes = message
 
def __str__(self) : return self.mes
 
def terminate(*args) :
global util_name
 
mes = util_name + " :"
for a in args :
mes = mes + " " + str(a)
raise TerminateError(mes)
 
util_name = "server-glitch"
server = "news.eternal-september.org"
separ = '\n@@@ \n\n'
port = 119
 
if len(sys.argv) != 3 :
terminate("2 arguments required : username and password")
 
username = sys.argv[1]
password = sys.argv[2]
 
fnobj = open("/tmp/server-glitch-2" , "a")
now = datetime.datetime.now()
fnobj.write("Starting at " + now.strftime("%Y-%m-%d %H:%M:%S %z") + '\n\n')
 
try :
connection = nntplib.NNTP(server , port , username , password)
 
response = connection.group("comp.lang.c++")
fnobj.write("Response choosing comp.lang.c++ was\n\n" + str(response) + "\n\n")
response , overviews = connection.xover("137660" , "137665")
fnobj.write("Response asking for range of articles was\n\n" +
str(response) + "\n\n")
 
for art in overviews :
fnobj.write("Article number " + str(art[0]) + " :\n")
fnobj.write(str(art[1]) + "\n\n")
 
for art in overviews :
response , number , id , content = connection.article(str(art[0]))
if id == '<36403165-3cf1-4b73-8ad1-da339b960339n@googlegroups.com>' or \
id == '<tqbkrr$1ja1c$1@dont-email.me>' :
fnobj.write("Printing article number " + str(art[0]) + " :\n\n")
for l in content :
fnobj.write(l + '\n')
fnobj.write(separ)
else :
fnobj.write("Skipping article with id\n " + id + separ)
connection.quit()
except nntplib.NNTPError,exception :
terminate("NNTP error\n" , "Exception was\n" , exception)
 
now = datetime.datetime.now()
fnobj.write("Terminating at " + now.strftime("%Y-%m-%d %H:%M:%S %z") +
'\n\n =======\n\n')
fnobj.close
====
 
The important points are the following :
 
server = "news.eternal-september.org"
 
connection = nntplib.NNTP(server , port , username , password)
 
response = connection.group("comp.lang.c++")
 
It connects to eternal-september and goes to comp.lang.c++ .
 
response , overviews = connection.xover("137660" , "137665")
 
Asks for list of articles from 137660 to 137665 , same numbers as with
lynx above.
 
Then it goes through the articles one by one and puts in
/tmp/server-glitch-2 the articles with IDs
<36403165-3cf1-4b73-8ad1-da339b960339n@googlegroups.com> and
<tqbkrr$1ja1c$1@dont-email.me> .It puts the articles exactly as it receives
them from the header. Again you will see that the Shambat article has
 
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
 
so it should not have appeared under comp.lang.c++ regardless of what
range of articles we asked for.
 
--
Technology is dominated by two types of people: those who understand
what they do not manage, and those who manage what they do not
understand.
Putt's law
David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no>: Jan 26 12:00AM +0100

On 25/01/2023 17:39, David Ritz wrote:
 
> It appears that Thunderbird and/or Pan is/are playing silly buggers
> with threading. We'd have a better idea of what was going on, if the
> display headers included the Newsgroups information.
 
The clients are not playing silly buggers. Do you /really/ think two
completely independent newsclients would show the same incorrect
information about one - and only one - particular article in one thread
in one group from one server, and get everything else right (including
getting the article right when using a different newsserver) ?
 
I'm at a loss to comprehend the level of denialism here.
 
 
> you see in the Newsgroups header? What do you see in the Xref header?
> (The Xref header is added by the NNTP server, from which the article
> is being retrieved.)
 
I recommend you check these things for yourself.
 
However, I will do my best to answer your questions.
 
In the overview, or "header" pane of pan, the article in question is
says it is from Muttley with the subject "Re: Compute Unique Numbers in
a Set". The message id is "tqb2m7$1aqa$1@gioia.aioe.org". The
timestamp is 19.01.2023 10:31, and it is 22 lines.
 
Clicking on that gives the full article (headers plus body) that
news.eternal-september.org returns - Message id
"36403165-3cf1-4b73-8ad1-da339b960339n@googlegroups.com", from Ilya
Shambat, newsgroups rec.arts.books. Xref:
reader01.eternal-september.org rec.arts.books:26566.
 
Basically, the overview provided by the server (I guess by the "OVER"
NNTP command) looks fine and appropriate, and is what you'll see from
other servers. But the article content (I guess from the "ARTICLE" NNTP
command) for the message is really a completely different message.
 
It's the symptoms you'd expect from a mismatch between the overview
database and the main message database, as mentioned by the
news.eternal-september.org admin.
 
 
> If only rec.arts.books is listed in the Xref header, that article
> appears only there on the ES spool. If comp.lang.c++ is also
> included, it indicates a server side error.
 
Only rec.arts.books is there - so there is a server side error. The
server should not have returned that message when asked for the article
with the message id of the comp.lang.c++ header.
 
> Speaking of Thunderbird flakiness, while "Re. Compu..." appears in the
> article list, while the Subject of the displayed article clearly shows
> "Change and Choice."
 
It clearly does, yes. That clearly shows the server has given the wrong
information.
 
The client gets the common headers twice for each article. It gets them
once from the overview (when the client is "downloading headers"), no
doubt using the "OVER" command. It gets them a second time when
downloading the body of the article (presumably with "ARTICLE"). When
the server is working correctly, these will contain the same information
- it therefore does not matter which one the client uses to show the
subject.
 
In this case, because of the server glitch, the client gets conflicting
information. One set is for one article, the other set is for a
different article that the server sent by mistake.
 
Nothing here indicates Thunderbird flakiness or flaws - it behaves
identically to Pan, and it is entirely correct and sensible behaviour
that results from trusting the server to give correct information.
 
 
If you want a better idea of what is going on, make an account on
news.eternal-september.org and try it yourself. It is surely less
effort than asking these things.
David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no>: Jan 26 12:03AM +0100

On 25/01/2023 23:13, Malcolm McLean wrote:
>> there was such a glitch.
 
> I suspect that Bonita's cat walked over the keyboard and somehow put a spurious
> message into comp.lang.c++.
 
I really think people should read the information posted in this thread,
and stop posting the same incorrect nonsense. The time for guessing
theories is long past - the admin of the newsserver in question has
already said there was a fault on the server.
 
Bonita has a style and manner that annoys many people, and has ended up
in several kill-files as a result. (The same applies to Muttley.) That
does not mean it is fair to continually accuse her and blame her of
something she did not do.
 
There was a server glitch. Bonita responded to the post as she saw it,
because the newsserver she used returned the wrong message body. That's
all there is to it.
ikook <iKook@GMAIL.COM>: Jan 25 11:17PM

On 25/01/2023 23:03, David Brown wrote:
 
> There was a server glitch. Bonita responded to the post as she saw
> it, because the newsserver she used returned the wrong message body.
> That's all there is to it.
 
Which particular message you are referring to that shows there was a
glitch? Post the FULL HEADER OF THAT MESSAGE.
Pawel Por <porparek@gmail.com>: Jan 25 12:43PM -0800

Hello,
 
Please help me to understand why in the following example MyList::push_front(T&&) receives argument by lvalue reference while std::forward_list::push_front(_Tp&&) receives argument by rvalue reference.
 
Thank you in advance
 
#include <iostream>
#include <forward_list>
 
template <typename T>
void p(const T &v)
{
std::cout << v << std::endl;
}
 
struct Dog
{
Dog() { p(__PRETTY_FUNCTION__); }
Dog(const Dog&) { p(__PRETTY_FUNCTION__); }
Dog(Dog&&) { p(__PRETTY_FUNCTION__); }
 
Dog& operator=(const Dog&) { p(__PRETTY_FUNCTION__); return *this; }
Dog& operator=(Dog &&) { p(__PRETTY_FUNCTION__); return *this; }
};
 
template<typename T>
struct MyList
{
void push_front(T &&v) {}
};
 
int main(int argc, char **argv)
{
MyList<Dog> ml;
std::forward_list<Dog> fl;
Dog dog;
 
p("ml.push_front");
ml.push_front(std::move(dog)); // lvalue reference
p("fl.push_front");
fl.push_front(std::move(dog)); // rvalue reference
 
return 0;
}
"Alf P. Steinbach" <alf.p.steinbach@gmail.com>: Jan 25 10:49PM +0100

On 2023-01-25 9:43 PM, Pawel Por wrote:
> Hello,
 
> Please help me to understand why in the following example MyList::push_front(T&&) receives argument by lvalue reference while std::forward_list::push_front(_Tp&&) receives argument by rvalue reference.
 
That is not the case.
 
 
> fl.push_front(std::move(dog)); // rvalue reference
 
> return 0;
> }
 
 
You don't get any output from the call of `MyList::push_front` because
it doesn't do anything.
 
Here's more sane code:
 
#include <iostream>
#include <forward_list>
#include <utility>
 
template <typename T>
void p(const T &v)
{
std::cout << v << std::endl;
}
 
struct Dog
{
Dog() { p(FUNCSIG); }
Dog(const Dog&) { p(FUNCSIG); }
Dog(Dog&&) { p(FUNCSIG); }
 
Dog& operator=(const Dog&) { p(FUNCSIG); return *this; }
Dog& operator=(Dog &&) { p(FUNCSIG); return *this; }
};
 
template<typename T>
struct MyList
{
void push_front(T &&v) { T x = std::move( v ); (void) x; }
};
 
int main()
{
MyList<Dog> ml;
std::forward_list<Dog> fl;
Dog dog;
 
p("ml.push_front");
ml.push_front(std::move(dog));
p("fl.push_front");
fl.push_front(std::move(dog));
}
 
Output:
 
[C:\root\temp]
> cl _.cpp /D FUNCSIG=__FUNCSIG__
_.cpp
 
[C:\root\temp]
> _
__cdecl Dog::Dog(void)
ml.push_front
__cdecl Dog::Dog(struct Dog &&)
fl.push_front
__cdecl Dog::Dog(struct Dog &&)
 
[C:\root\temp]
> g++ _.cpp -D FUNCSIG=__PRETTY_FUNCTION__
 
[C:\root\temp]
> _
__cdecl Dog::Dog(void)
ml.push_front
__cdecl Dog::Dog(struct Dog &&)
fl.push_front
__cdecl Dog::Dog(struct Dog &&)
 
- Alf
"Alf P. Steinbach" <alf.p.steinbach@gmail.com>: Jan 25 05:42AM +0100

On 2023-01-24 4:15 AM, Jack L wrote:
 
> Document is dated: 2022-12-18
 
> I am not cross posting this to C newsgroup as most of them visit here
> during the day.
 
https://eel.is/c++draft/
 
- Alf
"Öö Tiib" <ootiib@hot.ee>: Jan 24 04:41PM -0800

On Wednesday, 25 January 2023 at 01:14:39 UTC+2, Chris M. Thomasson wrote:
 
> void main
 
> God damn it!
 
Can't even return if a program completed successfully or failed?
Instead some kind of agents start to roam around autonomously
and moan "Braiins!" Maybe that is what the "z" comes from.
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