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- Are there any certifications for C++ - 5 Updates
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| woodbrian77@gmail.com: Sep 25 07:24PM -0700 On Thursday, September 25, 2014 2:56:41 PM UTC-5, Richard wrote: > high you will be working on a team with other engineers, UX designers, > testers and so-on. If you pair program with the team for a day you > will both get a feel for how well you are going to fit into that team. I'm looking more for "misfits" I guess. Brian Ebenezer Enterprises - If you can't join 'em, beat 'em. http://webEbenezer.net |
| David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no>: Sep 26 10:13AM +0200 On 25/09/14 22:25, Christopher Pisz wrote: > the candidate wrote the lines in question or if someone else did, or if > it was edited? At least without spending hours in their source control > system. You can often get an idea after spending just minutes in their source control system. If the candidate thinks their open source contributions are relevant, they should tell their prospective employer in their resume or covering letter, and should say roughly what they did. It should only take a very quick check to see if they are telling the truth about their role in the project, and (assuming it was significant enough) it will not take long to get some samples of their code. |
| Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com>: Sep 26 09:31PM +1200 Richard wrote: > There are many more factors to consider in a candidate beyond the > resume. The resume is just the starting point and only scratches the > surface. I would always get a candidate who passed our first interview to spend an hour or so pairing with one or more team members. Some people come across really well in interviews but can't program their way out of a paper bag. > high you will be working on a team with other engineers, UX designers, > testers and so-on. If you pair program with the team for a day you > will both get a feel for how well you are going to fit into that team. +1. A development team should have a say in the recruitment process. Although I must admit the process confused our HR people no end! -- Ian Collins |
| legalize+jeeves@mail.xmission.com (Richard): Sep 26 06:42PM [Please do not mail me a copy of your followup] Christopher Pisz <nospam@notanaddress.com> spake the secret code >the candidate wrote the lines in question or if someone else did, or if >it was edited? At least without spending hours in their source control >system. As others have said, for starters you browse around the source control system. You can also do things like run static analysis tools on their source and then ask them in an interview about any problems detected. The source code isn't a substitute for an interview, but I might accept it as a substitute for a resume. Their contributions to open source form the starting point for a discussion. It is very similar to the practice of asking candidates to code a solution to a programming problem. This is something that many teams do to guage a minimum level of competency. They submit code in response to the problem and we evaluate it for correctness and style. Personally I think open source contributions are a better representative of what they do in code when they are coding just for themselves and not in an attempt to please others. So it could be a more typical representation of how they code. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book <http://tinyurl.com/d3d-pipeline> The Computer Graphics Museum <http://computergraphicsmuseum.org> The Terminals Wiki <http://terminals.classiccmp.org> Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com> |
| woodbrian77@gmail.com: Sep 26 12:22PM -0700 On Friday, September 26, 2014 1:42:26 PM UTC-5, Richard wrote: > detected. The source code isn't a substitute for an interview, but I > might accept it as a substitute for a resume. Their contributions to > open source form the starting point for a discussion. I would say their contributions to their company are a starting point for a discussion. The contributions might not be to an open source project. It's possible to make decisions based on closed source contributions ... was the product successful ... in the case of the C++ Middleware Writer people can evaluate the open source output from the code generator ... I would also consider if they had contributed to failed open source projects. > representative of what they do in code when they are coding just for > themselves and not in an attempt to please others. So it could be a > more typical representation of how they code. I don't code just for myself. Brian Ebenezer Enterprises - To G-d be the glory. http://webEbenezer.net |
| Robert Hutchings <rm.hutchings@gmail.com>: Sep 26 09:17AM -0500 I decided to start a new thread regarding the "vetting" of C++ job candidates. When you interview prospective C++ developers, do you give them tests? For example, show them a small C++ program that has incorrect or improper statements, and ask the candidate to identify those flaws. I have had a couple of these. Another "test" is to ask the candidate to write a small-ish program that will calculate some value or perhaps store and retrieve data. I'd be interested to hear what kind of tests or interview questions you use to qualify candidates... |
| Wouter van Ooijen <wouter@voti.nl>: Sep 26 04:37PM +0200 Robert Hutchings schreef op 26-Sep-14 4:17 PM: > will calculate some value or perhaps store and retrieve data. > I'd be interested to hear what kind of tests or interview questions you > use to qualify candidates... If you do this on paper, remember to ignore all problems that would be diagnosed by a compiler. IMO the danger of such 'small' tests is that you don't test what is realy important: whether the candidate gets the 'big architecture picture' correct. My approach was to get the candidate to talk. Give him/her a piece of code to lak about, or ask her/him for his greatest achievement so far. Not for the achievement itself, but for the talking. Wouter van Ooijen |
| scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal): Sep 26 03:31PM >My approach was to get the candidate to talk. Give him/her a piece of >code to lak about, or ask her/him for his greatest achievement so far. >Not for the achievement itself, but for the talking. Indeed. Asking about language features or STL is pretty silly; one should be determining abstract problem solving skills and, when interviewing for an architect, how the candidate would architect a solution. |
| Wouter van Ooijen <wouter@voti.nl>: Sep 26 07:38PM +0200 Scott Lurndal schreef op 26-Sep-14 5:31 PM: > Indeed. Asking about language features or STL is pretty silly; one > should be determining abstract problem solving skills and, when interviewing > for an architect, how the candidate would architect a solution. Even for such a question (which is IMO much better than asking for nitty gritty details) I would be more interested in range of solutions such a person would propose, and his arguments for and against each solution. Today I had to compose (multiple-choice) questions for the C++ exam for my course. I visted a number of sites that show such questions. To my surprise I could use only a very limited number (maybe 5%), because the rest was about wording, syntax details, or just plain wrong. Note that some detail questions *are* good questions. Like: what is probably wrong with this function? T & f(); (answer: what does that returned reference refer to? A global -> yuk! A local -> worse! An allocated heap object -> who is responsible for managing this object?) Wouter van Ooijen |
| legalize+jeeves@mail.xmission.com (Richard): Sep 26 06:45PM [Please do not mail me a copy of your followup] Robert Hutchings <rm.hutchings@gmail.com> spake the secret code >have had a couple of these. >Another "test" is to ask the candidate to write a small-ish program that >will calculate some value or perhaps store and retrieve data. We have done both of these, but some people choke up when you ask them to write code in front of you in an interview situation. We supply them a programming problem in advance (make sure they can't google the answer!) and give them as much time as they'd like to complete the problem. This makes the programming less a time-stressor activity and more of a natural programming activity. I also build a list of questions. I tell them that I don't expect them to know the answers to all my questions, but that the questions are designed to find the edge of their knowledge. Then I'll ask more questions to try and walk along that edge. This tells me the extent of their knowledge about the programming language, design techniques, problem domain, whatever. I get a better insight into the depth of their knowledge this way rather than building a list that every candidate must answer correctly. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book <http://tinyurl.com/d3d-pipeline> The Computer Graphics Museum <http://computergraphicsmuseum.org> The Terminals Wiki <http://terminals.classiccmp.org> Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com> |
| legalize+jeeves@mail.xmission.com (Richard): Sep 26 06:55PM [Please do not mail me a copy of your followup] slp53@pacbell.net spake the secret code >Indeed. Asking about language features or STL is pretty silly; [...] I find value in asking about such things. For one, I don't want to hire a C++ programmer that is adding code that is full of C-isms[1]. I want a C++ programmer that understands const and references and RAII, among other things. I also want a C++ programmer that is familiar with the three main abstractions in the standard library: iterators, containers and algorithms. I don't mean to say that they should have every detail memorized, but that they should know the broad strokes so that they are leveraging the standard library to its full potential. I also want a programmer that understands principles of object-oriented design like SOLID[2] and DRY[3]. If I had to choose between someone who knew C++ features but didn't know good design principles and someone who knew good design principles but didn't know C++, I'd choose the latter. But rarely is it such a cut-and-dried choice when interviewing candidates. Usually they know a mixture of some of both. [1] <http://www.slideshare.net/LegalizeAdulthood/c-traps-and-pitfalls-for-c-programmers> [2] <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SOLID_(object-oriented_design)> [3] <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don%27t_repeat_yourself> -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book <http://tinyurl.com/d3d-pipeline> The Computer Graphics Museum <http://computergraphicsmuseum.org> The Terminals Wiki <http://terminals.classiccmp.org> Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com> |
| scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal): Sep 26 07:18PM >>Indeed. Asking about language features or STL is pretty silly; [...] >I find value in asking about such things. For one, I don't want to >hire a C++ programmer that is adding code that is full of C-isms[1]. Misguided attempt at language purity. >I want a C++ programmer that understands const and references and >RAII, among other things. I want programmers that can solve problems effiently and effectively. I don't particularly care whether they use "pure C++" (in fact, I have no problem with using C-isms in C++ programs (e.g. snprintf instead of i/o streams). In several of the projects I've hired for, STL wasn't even allowed (bare-metal C++ code). There is much benefit in "C + Classes"-style of C++. As much as the C++14 purists, if not much, much more. |
| Robert Hutchings <rm.hutchings@gmail.com>: Sep 26 01:51PM -0500 As I become more proficient in C++, I often wish for a peer review. Unfortunately, my current employer does NOT "do" code reviews (!). This would only be an occasional thing, and I am very receptive to constructive criticism.... -> Rob Hutchings |
| legalize+jeeves@mail.xmission.com (Richard): Sep 26 07:05PM [Please do not mail me a copy of your followup] Robert Hutchings <rm.hutchings@gmail.com> spake the secret code >Unfortunately, my current employer does NOT "do" code reviews (!). >This would only be an occasional thing, and I am very receptive to >constructive criticism.... I would suggest posting a link to a github repository. Many people may not be aware of it, but github allows you to comment on a changeset. This allows the commenter the full ability to use markdown for links, embedded images, etc. The comments remain attached to the revision and you can have entire threads focused on a particular piece of code in the revision. You can then update the code with a new revision and iterate with your reviewers. There are also open source packages designed specifically for code review that integrate with source code control systems. Off the top of my head, I can think of three: - Gerrit <https://code.google.com/p/gerrit/> - Review Board <https://www.reviewboard.org/> - Phabricator <http://phabricator.org/> There are probably others. At my work, we use review board for everything. The Clang/LLVM project has started using Phabricator: <http://reviews.llvm.org/> If you just want some personal feedback, I'd suggest starting with the facility built into github. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book <http://tinyurl.com/d3d-pipeline> The Computer Graphics Museum <http://computergraphicsmuseum.org> The Terminals Wiki <http://terminals.classiccmp.org> Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com> |
| Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid>: Sep 26 11:35AM > It is sin that caused our death, not God. Who created hell? Who created the rules by which he condemns us to hell? Who imposes these rules? Who sends us to hell to be tortured forever? No, your god is a mentally sick psychopath, no matter how much you try to wiggle with your theological excuses. Imagine that a father had built a torture cellar, and locks up his children in there and tortures them. When questioned, he answers: "I didn't condment them to be locked in the cellar. They did!" Would you accept this as a valid excuse, and let the man go free? Of course not. Yet your god is exactly like that, and you excuse him. > of that death through His Son, Jesus Christ. He came here to die in > our place, to take the punishment due us in our place. He came here > to save that which was lost through sin. Imagine if a father tortured and killed his own oldest son so that he could "forgive" his younger children for their "crimes". Would you accept that as a valid excuse and let him go free? Of course not. Yet when it's your god... Your god is nothing more than an evil, mentally sick psychopath. He doesn't deserve worship and love. He deserves condemnation and contempt. Even if he existed I wouldn't worship him. He would have a lot to answer for. --- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: news@netfront.net --- |
| "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com>: Sep 26 06:11AM -0700 On Friday, September 26, 2014 7:35:35 AM UTC-4, Juha Nieminen wrote: > Who...? Who...? Who...? Who...? Would you...? In your reply, you asked several questions. Are you actually wanting answers? I'll tell you this much... the answers you're seeking are in the response to that question. If you want the answers, you will find them. If you don't want the answers, you will never find them. Are you actually wanting answers? Best regards, Rick C. Hodgin |
| drew@furrfu.invalid (Drew Lawson): Sep 26 01:47PM In article <193e578a-64e6-431e-945c-21313ff8d853@googlegroups.com> >> Who...? Who...? Who...? Who...? Would you...? >In your reply, you asked several questions. Are you actually wanting >answers? What kind of nutjob answers rhetorical questions? -- Drew Lawson | Though it's just a memory, | some memories last forever |
| Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid>: Sep 26 02:13PM > the response to that question. If you want the answers, you will find > them. If you don't want the answers, you will never find them. > Are you actually wanting answers? That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. For example, one of the questions I asked was: Who created hell? How exactly does the answer depend on what I might or might not want? Jut answer the questions, plain and simple. --- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: news@netfront.net --- |
| "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com>: Sep 26 07:27AM -0700 On Friday, September 26, 2014 10:13:32 AM UTC-4, Juha Nieminen wrote: > > Are you actually wanting answers? > That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. > For example, one of the questions I asked was: Who created hell? God created Hell. But you stop too soon in your inventory of God. While God created Hell, He also created a way out of Hell for all of those who pursue truth and are willing to turn away from sin. > How exactly does the answer depend on what I might or might not want? When a person asks questions like these they may be espousing, or they may be seeking. The tone of your post indicates you didn't really want answers, hence my question. > Jut answer the questions, plain and simple. Jesus is the answer. He brings everything God's done into fullest focus. God created Hell to put away sin. Jesus saves us from Hell. God put away sin, and saved everyone who will listen to truth, past, present, and future. One Death on the cross, His own, and all who share in His Death also rise with Him. The answer is there. For you it will be found in your willingness to hear the truth. If you are unwilling to hear the truth, it will elude you completely. If you are willing to hear the truth, then you will find the answer, and understand. Best regards, Rick C. Hodgin |
| Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid>: Sep 26 04:41PM > God created Hell. But you stop too soon in your inventory of God. > While God created Hell, He also created a way out of Hell for all > of those who pursue truth and are willing to turn away from sin. In other words, God created a place of eternal indescribable torment for his creations, and he sends there anybody who doesn't love him the right way. So he's like a sadistic mafia boss: Either pay your due respect, or you'll get tortured mercilessly. Your choice. Why should I have any kind of respect for a god that does that? That kind of god would be a monster to be feared. Your proselytizing isn't very convincing, you know? "Obey God, or he'll send you to hell, which he himself created, to be tortured forever." That's not a loving god. That's a despicable monster. >> Jut answer the questions, plain and simple. > Jesus is the answer. Are you being a smartass? You know perfectly well that's not what I asked. --- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: news@netfront.net --- |
| "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com>: Sep 26 10:34AM -0700 On Friday, September 26, 2014 12:41:59 PM UTC-4, Juha Nieminen wrote: > In other words... I'm sorry, very sorry, but you will never understand ... not until you are willing to understand. You come to this table with your own ideas about God, and about the way you believe things are, and it is there within your own "findings" that the barrier exists. The truth is being explained to you, but you will not hear any of it because you will not hear any of it. You are convinced in your personal understanding of who God is, and because of that you are blind to the truth. Until God draws you to the truth, you will never be able to hear it. You will always be on the outside looking in, angry about the fact that you believe God is a particular way, when He is not that way. And angry that people like me have found something that you do not and cannot have because of the barriers you carry with you, and for no other reason. I pray you come out of your pride, arrogance, your personal beliefs and viewpoints, and ask the question ... really ask the question, about who God is, for in the day that you do ... on that day you will find the answer. Until then, I will keep you in my prayers as the Lord brings you to my remembrance. Best regards, Rick C. Hodgin |
| "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com>: Sep 26 10:53AM -0700 On Friday, September 26, 2014 12:41:59 PM UTC-4, Juha Nieminen wrote: > In other words... FWIW, I had your exact argument 20 years ago. I had someone witness to me about Jesus Christ and my responses were almost verbatim what you've said here. Until the change takes place within... it will be your position. But on the day the change takes place, you will experience a new world that you did not even dream existed. Your eternal eyes will be opened, and you'll be absolutely and completely floored. I pray this happens to you. And to everyone on this group. Best regards, Rick C. Hodgin |
| Wouter van Ooijen <wouter@voti.nl>: Sep 26 07:57PM +0200 Rick C. Hodgin schreef op 26-Sep-14 7:53 PM: > you did not even dream existed. Your eternal eyes will be opened, and > you'll be absolutely and completely floored. > I pray this happens to you. And to everyone on this group. Please have the decency not to pray for me, I do *not* appreciate it. Wouter van Ooijen |
| Mr Flibble <flibbleREMOVETHISBIT@i42.co.uk>: Sep 26 07:32PM +0100 On 26/09/2014 18:53, Rick C. Hodgin wrote: > you did not even dream existed. Your eternal eyes will be opened, and > you'll be absolutely and completely floored. > I pray this happens to you. And to everyone on this group. Evolution is proof that you are deluded mate. /Flibble |
| woodbrian77@gmail.com: Sep 26 11:35AM -0700 On Friday, September 26, 2014 11:41:59 AM UTC-5, Juha Nieminen wrote: > the right way. > So he's like a sadistic mafia boss: Either pay your due respect, > or you'll get tortured mercilessly. Your choice. He's the server. He helps us figure out who we are. If you want to ignore the server you can, but a client can't really do that and be helpful to anyone. At that point the client is just making stuff up and hoping no one notices. There are consequences for a "client" that behaves that way. I would remove that "client" from my system -- thanks, but no thanks. Brian Ebenezer Enterprises - In G-d we trust. http://webEbenezer.net |
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