- comp.lang.c++.moderated status - 25 Updates
| Marcel Mueller <news.5.maazl@spamgourmet.org>: Dec 07 08:08AM +0100 On 07.12.17 00.20, Richard wrote: > FYI, I am working with Daveed Vandevoorde to revive moderation of > comp.lang.c++.moderated so we can all get away from the spam and the > trolls. Hopefully we can get moderation back online by January, 2018. From my experience the latency of moderated groups is more bothersome than the junk posts that can be mostly filtered by blacklists. In fact a common, /moderated filter list/ would be significantly more effective. Too bad that there is no standard for that. Marcel |
| Chris Vine <chris@cvine--nospam--.freeserve.co.uk>: Dec 07 10:58AM On Wed, 6 Dec 2017 23:11:44 -0800 (PST) > would either not appear in Thunderbird, or they would be shown > only in a special folder. > We are software developers. Such things are within our grasp. Assuming you are the real Rick Hodgin, you have got one hell of a nerve. The irony of your posting, and your own lack of self-knowledge, is extraordinary. When you have written the software to which you refer, you could call it the "Rick Hodgin spam filter" and pass into history as being like the Oracle of Delphi: the only oracle (as far as I am aware) to foretell its own demise. |
| legalize+jeeves@mail.xmission.com (Richard): Dec 06 11:20PM [Please do not mail me a copy of your followup] FYI, I am working with Daveed Vandevoorde to revive moderation of comp.lang.c++.moderated so we can all get away from the spam and the trolls. Hopefully we can get moderation back online by January, 2018. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book <http://tinyurl.com/d3d-pipeline> The Terminals Wiki <http://terminals-wiki.org> The Computer Graphics Museum <http://computergraphicsmuseum.org> Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com> |
| "James R. Kuyper" <jameskuyper@verizon.net>: Dec 07 02:07PM -0500 On 12/07/2017 01:38 PM, Richard wrote: ... > as a reader. You see stuff show up after moderation, so how is that > different from seeing it after someone posts it? You can't predict > when someone will post. It's hard to maintain the proper flow of conversation when the response is delayed 3 days from the time it was sent (which I've seen happen in some moderated newsgroups). Another issue is multiple responses: one person sends a message, and 20 people want to respond. In an unmoderated newsgroup, three of those people respond quickly, and the other 17 would have posted later, but they see that the point they wanted to make has already been made, so they don't bother posting a response. In a moderated group, all 20 of those people will send a response, many of them covering the same points as other people, because none of them see anyone else's response. I've seen this pattern many times in the moderated newsgroups I've monitored. It's particularly common if someone makes a mistake so simple that most of the people monitoring the newsgroup know the correct answer. A couple of dozen responses that all say "No, it doesn't work that way because size_t is unsigned" can get pretty boring. |
| Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com>: Dec 08 07:33AM +1300 On 12/07/2017 12:20 PM, Richard wrote: > FYI, I am working with Daveed Vandevoorde to revive moderation of > comp.lang.c++.moderated so we can all get away from the spam and the > trolls. Hopefully we can get moderation back online by January, 2018. If you need someone to cover the GMT+12 timezone, just ask. -- Ian |
| legalize+jeeves@mail.xmission.com (Richard): Dec 07 06:38PM [Please do not mail me a copy of your followup] Marcel Mueller <news.5.maazl@spamgourmet.org> spake the secret code > From my experience the latency of moderated groups is more bothersome >than the junk posts that can be mostly filtered by blacklists. The problem with blacklists is that the trolls and spammers keep using new identities and for some people not *everything* they say is worthless. I don't see how a moderation delay impacts your experience as a reader. You see stuff show up after moderation, so how is that different from seeing it after someone posts it? You can't predict when someone will post. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book <http://tinyurl.com/d3d-pipeline> The Terminals Wiki <http://terminals-wiki.org> The Computer Graphics Museum <http://computergraphicsmuseum.org> Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com> |
| "James R. Kuyper" <jameskuyper@verizon.net>: Dec 07 03:44PM -0500 On 12/07/2017 02:25 PM, Marcel Mueller wrote: >> with don't make it easy to filter out those responses. > In my news reader (quite old Thunderbird) the relevant filter action is > called "Ignore subthread". This excludes any troll feeder as well. Thanks for pointing that out. I hadn't noticed that option before, possibly because it doesn't quite do what I want: if someone posts a message I don't want to see, that prompts a conversation between two people whose messages I do want to see, I'd like to see that conversation. "Ignore subthread" (assuming it's name means what it seems to mean) would ignore that conversation. However, missing a small number of messages I do want to see might be a price worth paying for skipping a lot of messages I don't want to see. I'll give it a try. |
| Chris Vine <chris@cvine--nospam--.freeserve.co.uk>: Dec 07 12:23PM On Thu, 7 Dec 2017 04:00:49 -0800 (PST) "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> wrote: [snip] > You all think the posts I make are spam, that I'm here because I > enjoy posting spam and making this intrusion into people's lives, > like I in some perverse way enjoy that intrusion. [snip] You have posted the elided text probably 100 times over the past year. We do understand. We also understand that you are a nuisance, you are one of the causes of the need for a moderated group, you have minimal self-awareness, you lack regard for others and lo: verily I counsel thee, that my teaching unto thee wast not minded to provoke thee to a further posting of thy erstwhile utterings.[1] Chris You seem to like "unto"s and other archaic language. I hope this makes the position clearer. This could be more pithily put as "fuck off". |
| Chris Vine <chris@cvine--nospam--.freeserve.co.uk>: Dec 07 02:26PM On Thu, 7 Dec 2017 04:37:08 -0800 (PST) "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> wrote: [snip] > You are very rude, Chris, using profanity toward me. Is that really > the way you want to be? To not only deny Christ, but also amp up in > anti- Christ activities? HOW DARE YOU say I "deny Christ". Disagreeing with your off topic posting is not "denying Christ", nor is it "anti-Christ activities". You are making gross assumptions based on your own self-absorption and your conviction that only you and your narrow and obsessive version of Christianity counts as "true". I am rude to you, in the hope that that might break through your shell of self-absorption. I hope not to respond to you often, but when I do I fully intend to be rude again. |
| David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no>: Dec 07 10:43PM +0100 On 07/12/17 21:44, James R. Kuyper wrote: > to mean) would ignore that conversation. However, missing a small number > of messages I do want to see might be a price worth paying for skipping > a lot of messages I don't want to see. I'll give it a try. Yes, that is exactly what the "ignore subthread" option does. I have it on some filters for spam-bots, where the "poster" is clearly a program. As you say, it will filter out threads where a unwanted poster has inspired a more interesting conversation, usually by accident. Personally, I am quite quick at running through the latest posts - and if necessary, pressing "k" or "shift-k" for "kill thread" and "kill sub-thread" manually. It's a personal choice how you want to do it, and where you draw your lines - but the tools are there to help. My own judgement of when a thread is off-topic or inappropriate is based on contributions - if there are a number of people (3 at a minimum) making posts in the thread, excluding posts complaining about topicality, language, etc., then it is a thread of interest to members of the group. And surely that must make it at least somewhat topical - a Usenet group is (or should be) defined by the preferences and interests of its members, rather than the title of the group. It is first and foremost a community. |
| Real Troll <real.troll@trolls.com>: Dec 07 08:48AM -0400 On 06/12/2017 23:20, Richard wrote: > [Please do not mail me a copy of your followup] No we don't have the time to email you anything because it is not worth it!!!!!!!! > so we can all get away from the spam and the > trolls. I would think you could "get away from the spam and the trolls" if you bothered to learn how to kill-file known trolls like yours faithfully!!!! The major spammers here are the ones like you who keep replying to any crap posted here. For example, there is absolutely no need to reply to Rick idiot or Ramine bomber or Linux junkies or Mai-Wai-Chang. Just kill-file them and the problem is solved but people like you are so lazy to learn how to do this. |
| Cholo Lennon <chololennon@hotmail.com>: Dec 07 12:37PM -0300 On 06/12/17 20:20, Richard wrote: > FYI, I am working with Daveed Vandevoorde to revive moderation of > comp.lang.c++.moderated so we can all get away from the spam and the > trolls. Hopefully we can get moderation back online by January, 2018. Kudos to you! It would be nice just to discuss C++ and programming related topics. Best regards -- Cholo Lennon Bs.As. ARG |
| "Alf P. Steinbach" <alf.p.steinbach+usenet@gmail.com>: Dec 08 03:54AM +0100 On 12/7/2017 8:29 PM, Chris Vine wrote: > As a side note I don't think that moderators need to know a great deal > about C++. They just need to have reasonable judgement. Well, good knowledge certainly helps to avoid mishaps. One example: in a clc++m debate becoming a little heated, involving one very well known person, another one chose to mispel his name with just one character replaced, so that it referred to the male sexual organ. And with that mispeling it was still a common English surname. But apparent to all who saw that well known person's real name in the quote. Another example: an even more well known C++ authority once had a period of apparent stressful work load, or illness, whatever, and posted code with a `reinterpret_cast<double>(an_int)` (or like that), plus some more silliness, as intended to be valid code. I mailed him and asked him to ask us to reject that posting, and that's what we did. Happy ending, but it could e.g. have affected that person's standing vis-a-vis ignorant students. But in general the moderator's job is just to reduce or avoid noise, and not judge technical content at all. I must plead guilty to sometimes inserting a moderator's note bringing indisputable facts to the table, such as quote from the standard. Guilty because that implicitly is a judgment of the accuracy or completeness of the technical content, but it's also a judgment based on experience about a probable avalanche of correctional follow-ups citing the relevant fact, noise resulting from letting that content be posted without a mod note of fact. A typical sign of noise ahead, in the context of the purely technical postings that were the norm in clc++m, is that a posting is peppered with the word "you"; then it might be heading in a personal direction. Cheers!, - Alf |
| "James R. Kuyper" <jameskuyper@verizon.net>: Dec 07 01:28PM -0500 On 12/07/2017 02:08 AM, Marcel Mueller wrote: >> trolls. Hopefully we can get moderation back online by January, 2018. > From my experience the latency of moderated groups is more bothersome > than the junk posts that can be mostly filtered by blacklists. ... The people whose messages I normally want to monitor will frequently respond to messages that I don't want to see. The filters I'm familiar with don't make it easy to filter out those responses. A moderator who would prevent the messages I don't want to see from ever showing up in the first place would also incidentally eliminate the responses. I agree that latency is the key issue. I think that getting the latency down to no more than perhaps 3 hours is necessary to making a moderated newsgroup an acceptable alternative to an unmoderated one - but I gather that this would require a team of moderators working in coordinated shifts. |
| legalize+jeeves@mail.xmission.com (Richard): Dec 07 06:39PM [Please do not mail me a copy of your followup] "K. Frank" <kfrank29.c@gmail.com> spake the secret code >If I may make a suggestion: Perhaps the moderated group could be >a bit more lightly moderated than in the past. This might reduce >the burden on the moderators and speed up the moderation process. Given the reduced traffic, moderation shouldn't be a heavy burden. The point is just to keep the trolls and spam out. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book <http://tinyurl.com/d3d-pipeline> The Terminals Wiki <http://terminals-wiki.org> The Computer Graphics Museum <http://computergraphicsmuseum.org> Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com> |
| James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net>: Dec 07 10:29PM -0500 On 12/07/2017 03:38 PM, Richard wrote: ... > Me, I'm going to have it worse, because now I will have to see all > those junk posts as a moderator :) I would expect that you'd see far fewer such posts in a moderated newsgroup, because many people won't bother posting them in places where they won't be seen. |
| Mr Flibble <flibbleREMOVETHISBIT@i42.co.uk>: Dec 08 07:52PM On 08/12/2017 19:50, Rick C. Hodgin wrote: > who wind up in Hell are those who reject His offer because they choose > sin over truth, sin over forgiveness, sin's end of Hellfire over His > free gift of eternal life in Heaven's paradise. FUCK OFF YOU OBTUSE EGREGIOUS CUNT. /Flibble -- "Suppose it's all true, and you walk up to the pearly gates, and are confronted by God," Bryne asked on his show The Meaning of Life. "What will Stephen Fry say to him, her, or it?" "I'd say, bone cancer in children? What's that about?" Fry replied. "How dare you? How dare you create a world to which there is such misery that is not our fault. It's not right, it's utterly, utterly evil." "Why should I respect a capricious, mean-minded, stupid God who creates a world that is so full of injustice and pain. That's what I would say." |
| Marcel Mueller <news.5.maazl@spamgourmet.org>: Dec 07 08:25PM +0100 On 07.12.17 19.28, James R. Kuyper wrote: > The people whose messages I normally want to monitor will frequently > respond to messages that I don't want to see. The filters I'm familiar > with don't make it easy to filter out those responses. In my news reader (quite old Thunderbird) the relevant filter action is called "Ignore subthread". This excludes any troll feeder as well. > down to no more than perhaps 3 hours is necessary to making a moderated > newsgroup an acceptable alternative to an unmoderated one - but I gather > that this would require a team of moderators working in coordinated shifts. Ack. You just argued why I unsubscribed from all moderated groups. Marcel |
| Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se>: Dec 07 09:18PM On Thu, 2017-12-07, Rick C. Hodgin wrote: > posts could be flagged as spam, as well as users, and then they > would either not appear in Thunderbird, or they would be shown > only in a special folder. Make that: - designing a file format similar to the slrn score file format - write various converters from this score file format to whatever actual newsreaders use - see people set up Git repositories with such files But I suspect that's pretty much Marcel's proposal. > We are software developers. Such things are within our grasp. Yes. I don't think I'd use it, though. Killfiling is, to me, mostly a private activity. I don't trust others to do it for me, and I wouldn't want others to trust me. /Jorgen -- // Jorgen Grahn <grahn@ Oo o. . . \X/ snipabacken.se> O o . |
| "Alf P. Steinbach" <alf.p.steinbach+usenet@gmail.com>: Dec 08 02:15PM +0100 On 12/8/2017 11:57 AM, Stefan Ram wrote: > the contents of my posts, by changing the indentation from > 2 to 3 in some cases. The moderation did not allow a post to > demonstrate and discuss this in the moderated group. Postings about the moderation policy are (or were) always on-topic in clc++m. This was stated several times by the mods in commentary on postings, but apparently it's not explicitly stated in ¹the online moderation policy. I guess it would not be easy to get Herb to modify it now, but I think that ideally it should be stated there. That said, since 2012 I did not participate in the active moderation, because I got too ill, moved to northern Norway with extremely low bandwidth net access, and started on a series of surgery. Well, after an experimental horses cure that originally was devised for tuberculosis, and which was supposed to make me urinate blood, but failed to do that. Amazingly that was the year, without a job and without really doing anything for the community, that I got an MVP award from Microsoft. Hm. > One really should not publish something that someone did /not/ > wrote (like code with an indentation of 3) under his name. There was always two main problems with code formatting, namely too long lines, and – and I still do not know where the blank lines came from – double spacing, with every second line blank. This sometimes necessitated reformatting code. I guess someone must have done that with your code, fixed it for posting, and inadvertently changed the indents. The moderation policy recommends max 70 columns in a source code line, giving some leeway for quoting. Cheers! - Alf Links: ¹<url: http://www.gotw.ca/resources/clcm.htm#Posting> |
| Mr Flibble <flibbleREMOVETHISBIT@i42.co.uk>: Dec 08 05:09PM On 08/12/2017 16:55, Rick C. Hodgin wrote: > Because I've been changed, my polarity is now toward God, toward His > teachings, toward truth, toward righteousness. I still have to fight Toward *self-righteousness* you mean. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ks7AwE3Xpfk [snip] /Flibble |
| Mr Flibble <flibbleREMOVETHISBIT@i42.co.uk>: Dec 08 07:40PM On 08/12/2017 19:05, bartc wrote: > How about putting all that stuff in your sig, or posting a link there to > it? Then it could potentially reach a wider audience because it will > accompany all your technical and on-topic posts. Put it in your sig! What a great idea! +1 /Flibble -- "Suppose it's all true, and you walk up to the pearly gates, and are confronted by God," Bryne asked on his show The Meaning of Life. "What will Stephen Fry say to him, her, or it?" "I'd say, bone cancer in children? What's that about?" Fry replied. "How dare you? How dare you create a world to which there is such misery that is not our fault. It's not right, it's utterly, utterly evil." "Why should I respect a capricious, mean-minded, stupid God who creates a world that is so full of injustice and pain. That's what I would say." |
| legalize+jeeves@mail.xmission.com (Richard): Dec 07 08:36PM [Please do not mail me a copy of your followup] "James R. Kuyper" <jameskuyper@verizon.net> spake the secret code >It's hard to maintain the proper flow of conversation when the response >is delayed 3 days from the time it was sent (which I've seen happen in >some moderated newsgroups). That's a fair point. All I can say is that we will attempt to minimize delays in approving appropriate posts. The infrastructure is setup to handle multiple moderators allowing for sufficient concurrency across time zones that I don't expect there to be any significant delays due to moderation. After all, when you subtract out the spam and the trolling, there are only a handfull of messages a day in this unmoderated forum. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book <http://tinyurl.com/d3d-pipeline> The Terminals Wiki <http://terminals-wiki.org> The Computer Graphics Museum <http://computergraphicsmuseum.org> Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com> |
| legalize+jeeves@mail.xmission.com (Richard): Dec 07 08:37PM [Please do not mail me a copy of your followup] Chris Vine <chris@cvine--nospam--.freeserve.co.uk> spake the secret code >As a side note I don't think that moderators need to know a great deal >about C++. They just need to have reasonable judgement. Agreed. Again, we're just talking about keeping out the spam and the off-topic trolling. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book <http://tinyurl.com/d3d-pipeline> The Terminals Wiki <http://terminals-wiki.org> The Computer Graphics Museum <http://computergraphicsmuseum.org> Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com> |
| Chris Vine <chris@cvine--nospam--.freeserve.co.uk>: Dec 07 07:29PM On Thu, 7 Dec 2017 18:39:52 +0000 (UTC) > >the burden on the moderators and speed up the moderation process. > Given the reduced traffic, moderation shouldn't be a heavy burden. > The point is just to keep the trolls and spam out. But it does need to happen without too much delay. 3 hours is good to aim at. In the latter days of comp.lang.c++.moderated it could take a day to get a post moderated. I am happy to help if there is a shortage. As a side note I don't think that moderators need to know a great deal about C++. They just need to have reasonable judgement. |
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