Friday, December 8, 2017

Digest for comp.lang.c++@googlegroups.com - 25 updates in 5 topics

"Alf P. Steinbach" <alf.p.steinbach+usenet@gmail.com>: Dec 08 03:54AM +0100

On 12/7/2017 8:29 PM, Chris Vine wrote:
 
> As a side note I don't think that moderators need to know a great deal
> about C++. They just need to have reasonable judgement.
 
Well, good knowledge certainly helps to avoid mishaps.
 
One example: in a clc++m debate becoming a little heated, involving one
very well known person, another one chose to mispel his name with just
one character replaced, so that it referred to the male sexual organ.
And with that mispeling it was still a common English surname. But
apparent to all who saw that well known person's real name in the quote.
 
Another example: an even more well known C++ authority once had a period
of apparent stressful work load, or illness, whatever, and posted code
with a `reinterpret_cast<double>(an_int)` (or like that), plus some more
silliness, as intended to be valid code. I mailed him and asked him to
ask us to reject that posting, and that's what we did. Happy ending, but
it could e.g. have affected that person's standing vis-a-vis ignorant
students.
 
But in general the moderator's job is just to reduce or avoid noise, and
not judge technical content at all. I must plead guilty to sometimes
inserting a moderator's note bringing indisputable facts to the table,
such as quote from the standard. Guilty because that implicitly is a
judgment of the accuracy or completeness of the technical content, but
it's also a judgment based on experience about a probable avalanche of
correctional follow-ups citing the relevant fact, noise resulting from
letting that content be posted without a mod note of fact.
 
A typical sign of noise ahead, in the context of the purely technical
postings that were the norm in clc++m, is that a posting is peppered
with the word "you"; then it might be heading in a personal direction.
 
 
Cheers!,
 
- Alf
James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net>: Dec 07 10:29PM -0500

On 12/07/2017 03:38 PM, Richard wrote:
...
> Me, I'm going to have it worse, because now I will have to see all
> those junk posts as a moderator :)
 
I would expect that you'd see far fewer such posts in a moderated
newsgroup, because many people won't bother posting them in places where
they won't be seen.
woodbrian77@gmail.com: Dec 07 07:35PM -0800

On Thursday, December 7, 2017 at 8:55:06 PM UTC-6, Alf P. Steinbach wrote:
> ask us to reject that posting, and that's what we did. Happy ending, but
> it could e.g. have affected that person's standing vis-a-vis ignorant
> students.
 
Probably your example predates Github. I think newsgroup posts
mattered more before Github. Now you can refer people to your
Github projects, and it's understood that that's your best work.
 
 
Brian
Ebenezer Enterprises - In G-d we trust.
http://webEbenezer.net
Daniel <danielaparker@gmail.com>: Dec 07 07:48PM -0800

On Thursday, December 7, 2017 at 10:29:27 PM UTC-5, James Kuyper wrote:
 
> I would expect that you'd see far fewer such posts in a moderated
> newsgroup, because many people won't bother posting them in places where
> they won't be seen.
 
Unless they feel compelled to save the souls of the moderators, of course.
"Alf P. Steinbach" <alf.p.steinbach+usenet@gmail.com>: Dec 08 02:15PM +0100

On 12/8/2017 11:57 AM, Stefan Ram wrote:
> the contents of my posts, by changing the indentation from
> 2 to 3 in some cases. The moderation did not allow a post to
> demonstrate and discuss this in the moderated group.
 
Postings about the moderation policy are (or were) always on-topic in
clc++m. This was stated several times by the mods in commentary on
postings, but apparently it's not explicitly stated in ¹the online
moderation policy. I guess it would not be easy to get Herb to modify it
now, but I think that ideally it should be stated there.
 
That said, since 2012 I did not participate in the active moderation,
because I got too ill, moved to northern Norway with extremely low
bandwidth net access, and started on a series of surgery. Well, after an
experimental horses cure that originally was devised for tuberculosis,
and which was supposed to make me urinate blood, but failed to do that.
Amazingly that was the year, without a job and without really doing
anything for the community, that I got an MVP award from Microsoft.
 
Hm.
 
 
> One really should not publish something that someone did /not/
> wrote (like code with an indentation of 3) under his name.
There was always two main problems with code formatting, namely too
long lines, and – and I still do not know where the blank lines came
from – double spacing, with every second line blank. This sometimes
necessitated reformatting code. I guess someone must have done that with
your code, fixed it for posting, and inadvertently changed the indents.
 
The moderation policy recommends max 70 columns in a source code line,
giving some leeway for quoting.
 
 
Cheers!
 
- Alf
 
Links:
¹<url: http://www.gotw.ca/resources/clcm.htm#Posting>
leigh.v.johnston@googlemail.com: Dec 08 05:41AM -0800

Someone, for example Rick C. Hodgin, who spams c.l.c++ should be automatically added to the c.l.c++.m moderation killfile.
 
/Leigh
Real Troll <real.troll@trolls.com>: Dec 08 10:30AM -0400

On 08/12/2017 03:29, James Kuyper wrote:
> I would expect that you'd see far fewer such posts in a moderated
> newsgroup, because many people won't bother posting them in places where
> they won't be seen.
 
The sooner that idiot called Richard goes the better it will be for the
man-kind here. He has generated more spam than Rick or his imposter has
managed in the last 7 days. In fact I haven't seen any of the posts
from Religious Rick or his imposter because my filter did its work. All
the spam I saw were from idiots and nutters responding to him or his
imposter (Mai-Wai-Chang) and, of course, Richard, who started a thread
that generated more rubbish.
 
I'll rather see all the nutters go to whatever moderated NG they go to
so that we can have serious discussions here.
"Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com>: Dec 08 02:05PM

On 07/12/2017 19:09, Rick C. Hodgin wrote:
> Hi, my name is Rick C. Hodgin and in-between my several daily sessions
> of jerking off to an image of a naked Jesus Christ I drink my own piss.
 
Why do I do this you ask? Well Jesus Christ is cute and has a huge cock
and God told me that my piss undergoes transubstantiation when I urinate
turning into the Piss of Christ (holy water).
 
--
 
Thank you,
Rick C. Hodgin
ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram): Dec 08 10:57AM

>A typical sign of noise ahead, in the context of the purely technical
>postings that were the norm in clc++m, is that a posting is peppered
>with the word "you"; then it might be heading in a personal direction.
 
The moderation of one such group (clc++m or clcm) changed
the contents of my posts, by changing the indentation from
2 to 3 in some cases. The moderation did not allow a post to
demonstrate and discuss this in the moderated group.
 
One really should not publish something that someone did /not/
wrote (like code with an indentation of 3) under his name.
ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram): Dec 08 01:40PM

>That said, since 2012 I did not participate in the active moderation,
>because I got too ill
 
I wish you all the best for your future health and that the
illness may never come back or at least get less severe, so
that you may continue to work on your projects for a very
long time!
 
>The moderation policy recommends max 70 columns in a source code line,
>giving some leeway for quoting.
 
I think some indentations were modified even when lines were
short. I append a quotation of a message that I have
submitted to comp.lang.c++.moderated on Oct 23 of 2009, and
with which I wanted to check the appearence of indented
text. IIRC it was not published in the newsgroup, or at
least the problem was not addressed further. (The rest of
this here 2017 post only consists of that 2009 post.
The Date header is missing, because it was not stored for
technical reasons. Some headers were removed from the post
for simplification.)
 
Newsgroups: comp.lang.c++.moderated
Subject: Re: Pronunciation of locale and facet
References: <b62de145-ee8d-4aaf-aac7-fdf73667baf1@u36g2000prn.googlegroups.com>
From: ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram)
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Content-Language: en
Message-ID: <pronunciation-20091023194229@ram.dialup.fu-berlin.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 
Mr360 <mister_360@yahoo.com> writes:
>What is the (proper? accepted? typical? American-vs-British?)
>pronounciation of locale and facet?
 
[lo 'k=3DC3=3DA6l]
['f=3DC3=3DA6s =3DC9=3DAAt]
 
I hope the moderation software can transfer
 
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3DUTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 
.
 
~~
 
This test intends to see whether the moderation
process modifies the indentation of paragraphs.
This paragraph was not indented when I sent the
post.
 
This test intends to see whether the moderation
process modifies the indentation of paragraphs.
This paragraph was indented by 1 space when I
sent the post.
 
This test intends to see whether the moderation
process modifies the indentation of paragraphs.
This paragraph was indented by 2 spaces when I
sent the post.
 
This test intends to see whether the moderation
process modifies the indentation of paragraphs.
This paragraph was indented by 3 spaces when I
sent the post.
 
This test intends to see whether the moderation
process modifies the indentation of paragraphs.
This paragraph was indented by 4 spaces when I
sent the post.
jacobnavia <jacob@jacob.remcomp.fr>: Dec 08 12:29AM +0100

Le 07/12/2017 à 00:09, Lynn McGuire a écrit :
> 1,605 pages ! ! !
 
This race to featurism and bloat will never stop...
 
Nobody knows or understands the whole language. There are so many
esoteric features that to master them all several lifes are necessary.
 
Sorry I have only one, impossible to waste it learning all those 1605 pages.
Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com>: Dec 08 12:41PM +1300

On 12/08/2017 12:29 PM, jacobnavia wrote:
> Le 07/12/2017 à 00:09, Lynn McGuire a écrit :
>> 1,605 pages ! ! !
 
> This race to featurism and bloat will never stop...
 
I'm sure that will will be shocked to learn that most C++ programmers
will welcome and use the new features. You are free to carry on keeping
your head in the sand.
 
--
Ian
woodbrian77@gmail.com: Dec 07 05:02PM -0800

On Thursday, December 7, 2017 at 3:55:16 PM UTC-6, Ian Collins wrote:
 
> Just like when C++11 dropped, it'll take a while to find the new bits
> that are really useful day to day. Today I tidied up some tool code by
> using the return value form emplace_back, so the journey has begun :)
 
I'm also using the emplace_back that returns a value. Other than
that the only thing I'm using is string_view. I've played with
class template argument deduction, but am not using it at this
time.
 
I'm not sure if compiler vendors have realized yet that string_view
and some other things need to be backported to their C++ 2011
compilers. Abseil won't cut it.
 
 
Brian
Ebenezer Enterprises - Enjoying programming again.
http://webEbenezer.net
Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com>: Dec 08 02:39PM +1300


> I'm not sure if compiler vendors have realized yet that string_view
> and some other things need to be backported to their C++ 2011
> compilers. Abseil won't cut it.
 
I'm sure you realise by now that this will never happen.
 
--
Ian.
Daniel <danielaparker@gmail.com>: Dec 07 06:42PM -0800

On Thursday, December 7, 2017 at 5:56:52 AM UTC-5, Chris Ahlstrom wrote:
> Daniel wrote this copyrighted missive and expects royalties:
 
> Boost!?
 
Unfortunately, many projects, especially open source projects, can't use
boost.
 
Daniel
Melzzzzz <Melzzzzz@zzzzz.com>: Dec 08 03:17AM


> Nobody knows or understands the whole language. There are so many
> esoteric features that to master them all several lifes are necessary.
 
> Sorry I have only one, impossible to waste it learning all those 1605 pages.
 
You don't have to use all features ;)
 
--
press any key to continue or any other to quit...
Melzzzzz <Melzzzzz@zzzzz.com>: Dec 08 03:19AM


>> Boost!?
 
> Unfortunately, many projects, especially open source projects, can't use
> boost.
 
Hm, is Boost license that restrictive? I saw some open source projects
using Boost.
 
 
--
press any key to continue or any other to quit...
Daniel <danielaparker@gmail.com>: Dec 07 07:47PM -0800

On Thursday, December 7, 2017 at 10:19:09 PM UTC-5, Melzzzzz wrote:
> On 2017-12-08, Daniel wrote:
 
> Hm, is Boost license that restrictive? I saw some open source projects
> using Boost.
 
It's not the license, boost license is fine (although it's not obvious to me
why they couldn't have just used MIT.)
 
Most open source C++ projects are utilities that are used in another
application. The main issue from a user's point of view is that if the
utility uses boost, it introduces a dependency in their application that
they may not want. Particularly if they also use boost, but require a
different version. Generally, users of open source utilities shy away from
ones that introduce dependencies on other libraries. There are generally
several to choose from, the competition in free software is fierce.
 
This consideration doesn't apply as much to open source C++ projects that
are complete applications, but they're in the minority.
 
Also, from an open source developer's point of view, it's common to set up
travis builds for as many environments as feasible. Having to build a boost
library for each of those environments is painful.
 
Daniel
woodbrian77@gmail.com: Dec 07 08:10PM -0800

On Thursday, December 7, 2017 at 9:47:29 PM UTC-6, Daniel wrote:
 
> Also, from an open source developer's point of view, it's common to set up
> travis builds for as many environments as feasible. Having to build a boost
> library for each of those environments is painful.
 
Yeah, I would never use Boost in the open source parts of
my software, but I use it a little in the closed source parts.
In general, I have more freedom in the closed source parts
than in the open source parts.
 
 
Brian
Ebenezer Enterprises
http://webEbenezer.net
Gareth Owen <gwowen@gmail.com>: Dec 08 06:22AM

>> esoteric features that to master them all several lifes are necessary.
 
>> Sorry I have only one, impossible to waste it learning all those 1605 pages.
 
> You don't have to use all features ;)
 
And, indeed, who besides compiler writers and serious language wonks
actually read language standards all the way through? (I'm sure some
people in this group do, but I suspect its a small minority of C++
programmers.)
 
The rest of us learn by browsing cppreference.com or reading
descriptions of the new features here or otherwise online. We learn new
idioms by example, and dip into the standard only for corner cases.
 
Just like movie review aggregators, online discussions of the new
features help us see the stuff that other people like or find useful,
and then we can concentrate on learning that.
 
The length of a language standard is of no more relevance than the
length of a phone book.
Melzzzzz <Melzzzzz@zzzzz.com>: Dec 08 07:11AM


> The rest of us learn by browsing cppreference.com or reading
> descriptions of the new features here or otherwise online. We learn new
> idioms by example, and dip into the standard only for corner cases.
 
Heh I learned most reading this group ;p
(and browsing cppreference).
 
> and then we can concentrate on learning that.
 
> The length of a language standard is of no more relevance than the
> length of a phone book.
Yep. Whatever features are there we'll find out if and when we need them
;p
 
--
press any key to continue or any other to quit...
David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no>: Dec 08 09:29AM +0100

On 08/12/17 07:22, Gareth Owen wrote:
> actually read language standards all the way through? (I'm sure some
> people in this group do, but I suspect its a small minority of C++
> programmers.)
 
Indeed. I have read most of the C11 standard and know my way around it
quite well now, but C++ standards are a far bigger job. The library
parts in particular are only useful for implementers who need the exact
specifications - they are certainly not learning resources!
 
 
> The rest of us learn by browsing cppreference.com or reading
> descriptions of the new features here or otherwise online. We learn new
> idioms by example, and dip into the standard only for corner cases.
 
Yes - www.cppreference.com is a very useful site. And there are lots of
good blogs around for describing the newer features.
 
Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com>: Dec 08 09:41PM +1300

On 12/08/2017 07:22 PM, Gareth Owen wrote:
> actually read language standards all the way through? (I'm sure some
> people in this group do, but I suspect its a small minority of C++
> programmers.)
 
Times have certainly changed. I kept hard copies of C99 and C++98 and
used them as a reference on an almost daily basis. I've barely dipped
into C++11 or 14.
 
> The rest of us learn by browsing cppreference.com or reading
> descriptions of the new features here or otherwise online. We learn new
> idioms by example, and dip into the standard only for corner cases.
 
As we now do in most things. Where I used to have a shelf of well
thumbed data books, my current hardware colleagues barely have any. The
only things cluttering my desk these days are ever bigger screens and
unopened bills...
 
--
Ian.
David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no>: Dec 08 09:46AM +0100

On 08/12/17 09:41, Ian Collins wrote:
> thumbed data books, my current hardware colleagues barely have any. The
> only things cluttering my desk these days are ever bigger screens and
> unopened bills...
 
I still have the bookshelves full, but rarely read them now. But my
desk is still cluttered - it has papers to an average depth of a couple
of inches, hundreds of dead post-it notes, three keyboards, coffee cups,
electronics boards, uncountably many USB sticks. I like to have things
at hand!
"Chris M. Thomasson" <invalid_chris_thomasson@invalid.invalid>: Dec 07 03:51PM -0800

On 12/6/2017 9:09 AM, fir wrote:
 
> im a noob in networking at all,
> at start i just need anythig that will work - right now im searching btw for a code snipped for firing non-blocking connect on client side
> (some 2h of slow googling and reading dont show me that snippet, does anybody maybe have that? tnx)
 
Fwiw, check out ConnectEx:
 
https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/ms737606(v=vs.85).aspx
 
Use it with IOCP:
 
https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/aa365198(v=vs.85).aspx
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