Tuesday, September 18, 2018

Digest for comp.lang.c++@googlegroups.com - 25 updates in 4 topics

boltar@cylonHQ.com: Sep 18 08:45AM

On Mon, 17 Sep 2018 11:53:41 -0700 (PDT)
>> Lynn
 
>I think Herb is being very consistent along the years=20
>and I like the subjects he choose.
 
Its time for C++ to be left alone. I fail to see the point in playing catch
up with all the new kids on the block since people who want that sort of
functionality arn't going to even look at C++. All that has resulted so far is
a dogs dinner language with bits of stuff thrown in to an incoherent whole with
a syntax that in recent years is now close to threatening Perl for the explosion
in a typewriter factory award.
 
C++ has its niche as an OO and generic version of C and will continue to be
used on to-the-metal and high speed projects, but for most other things these
days its been superceded. Notice that almost none of the "serverless" cloud
systems offer C or C++ as supported languages and unfortunately thats the way
development is headed these days.
 
Perhaps instead of adding yet more crap that no one will use the committee
should first concentrate on getting it to play nice with C99. They've only
had 19 years.
David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no>: Sep 18 11:13AM +0200

> days its been superceded. Notice that almost none of the "serverless" cloud
> systems offer C or C++ as supported languages and unfortunately thats the way
> development is headed these days.
 
Languages used on servers are often PHP, Python, etc. There are good
reasons for this - these languages are dynamic, managed languages with
good string support and with standard libraries for handling network
protocols of all sorts.
 
C++ is gaining some of the features that make these languages popular.
It won't get them all - there are always going to be good reasons for
choosing Python rather than C++. But that doesn't mean C++ can't
benefit from looking at them and thinking how it would be best to solve
the same problems in the C++ world.
 
Python has duck-typing, which makes it easy to use widely different
types in the same context. C++ has structural typing, so you need a
common base class if you want common functions - or you need templates
that have no obvious connection to the duck-like features you want.
Enter "concepts" that give you this, and you have many of the benefits
of duck-typing in a statically compiled and checked language.
 
Python has strings, dictionaries, lists, with automatic memory
management. Enter the C++ standard library which gives you these -
albeit with a somewhat less pleasant syntax.
 
Python has introspection and can add fields to classes and objects at
run-time, making it simple to write things like JSON serialisers and
deserialisers, or match classes to database tables. Enter C++
introspection and metaclasses, coming Real Soon Now!.
 
(Conversely, Python is acquiring type annotation in functions and other
features for "compile-time" checking.)
 
 
C++ has gone through a period of adding features that are complicated,
powerful, and difficult to understand. We have seen lots of creative
but obtuse solutions to problems - this lets experts create very useful
classes for the mortal C++ programmers to use. What we are seeing now
is a move towards a simplification of how C++ can be written while
making steadily more advanced features.
 
As a fine example, look at the "safe boolean idiom". It used to be
/horrendous/ - you need advanced C++ skills just to use it, and a very
warped brain to have come up with the solution in the first place. Now,
you just add "explicit" to the bool operator - clear, simple and easy
for everyone.
 
Look at template code today - it is often full of enable_if's, SFINAE
code, at other such messy and complicated details. Once concepts are
established, most of that just disappears, along with much of the ugly
syntax used to declare template functions.
 
Metaclasses will be another revolution in letting people write C++ code
in a simpler and clearer way, and letting people write more useful
libraries.
 
 
The C++ language has become more complicated and gained new features, in
order to make C++ /programming/ easier. That's a win as far as I can see.
 
 
> Perhaps instead of adding yet more crap that no one will use the committee
> should first concentrate on getting it to play nice with C99. They've only
> had 19 years.
 
I believe C++20 will have designated initialisers, which is nice - and
could have been copied from C99 long ago. There are a few other C99
features that could be pulled in, but not many - and most are already
supported as extensions by every C++ compiler except MSVC.
Elephant Man <conanospamic@gmail.com>: Sep 18 07:50AM

Article d'annulation posté via Nemo.
Elephant Man <conanospamic@gmail.com>: Sep 18 07:51AM

Article d'annulation posté via Nemo.
Elephant Man <conanospamic@gmail.com>: Sep 18 07:52AM

Article d'annulation posté via Nemo.
Elephant Man <conanospamic@gmail.com>: Sep 18 07:52AM

Article d'annulation posté via Nemo.
Elephant Man <conanospamic@gmail.com>: Sep 18 08:06AM

Article d'annulation émis par un modérateur JNTP via Nemo.
Elephant Man <conanospamic@gmail.com>: Sep 18 08:06AM

Article d'annulation émis par un modérateur JNTP via Nemo.
Elephant Man <conanospamic@gmail.com>: Sep 18 08:07AM

Article d'annulation émis par un modérateur JNTP via Nemo.
David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no>: Sep 17 10:32PM +0200

On 17/09/18 16:33, Rick C. Hodgin wrote:
 
>> Of course it is your personal opinion...
 
> I hold this position because over time I learned from God what it
> means.
 
In other words, it is your personal opinion. It is formed by your
faith, not independent fact.
 
> soul in Hellfire forever.  It is something God commands us to teach
> against because He wants people saved.  And I, having come to under-
> stand who God is and what that all means ... I also hold that position.
 
Homosexuality is normal. It is normal in many birds and animals -
surely you are not saying they also are condemned by sin? It is normal
in humans - it is normal to have attraction to both genders, usually
with a strong preference for one gender but usually not an absolute
preference. And for homosexuals, attraction to the same gender is
/normal/ for them. Trying to be anything else would be a lie. Do you
think your god made some people that way but then made rules saying they
are never allowed to love, to be loved, to be part of a family?
 
And please don't say it's not god's fault but man's, or Adam's, or the
devils - stop apologising for your irresponsible divinity. If he made
us this way and made rules against our nature, it is /his/ fault. If he
didn't do it, and has abdicated any fault and responsibility, then he
has also abdicated any claim on our obedience or thanks. He can't have
it both ways.
 
 
> However, this position did not /ORIGINATE/ from me, David.  It was
> something I first learned from God, thought about, and have received
> with gladness and joy because I know God, trust God, and love God.
 
I am sure you learned it from somewhere, yes. I don't think it was god,
but I appreciate that you do. It is, nonetheless, your opinion and not
an objective fact, and not an opinion shared by all.
Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com>: Sep 18 08:36AM +1200

On 18/09/18 02:33, Rick C. Hodgin wrote:
> soul in Hellfire forever. It is something God commands us to teach
> against because He wants people saved. And I, having come to under-
> stand who God is and what that all means ... I also hold that position.
 
Saved from what? The way they were created? Sexuality isn't a choice
if you believe it is, you are ignoring the evidence. If you refuse to
believe it despite the evidence, you are deluded.
 
> However, this position did not /ORIGINATE/ from me, David. It was
> something I first learned from God, thought about, and have received
> with gladness and joy because I know God, trust God, and love God.
 
The standard rhetoric of a bigot citing a higher authority. Evil things
happen when people do this, learn from history don't repeat it.
 
--
Ian.
"Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com>: Sep 17 04:43PM -0400

On 9/17/2018 4:36 PM, Ian Collins wrote:
 
> Saved from what?  The way they were created?  Sexuality isn't a choice if you
> believe it is, you are ignoring the evidence.  If you refuse to believe it
> despite the evidence, you are deluded.
 
This goes back to what I was trying to explain to Öö Tiib and
bitrex.
 
You're not born that way. You "feel" like you are born that
way because there are evil spirits in this world influencing
your flesh. Take them out of the equation (which is what Jesus
does) and you no longer "feel" the way they induce you to feel.
 
>> with gladness and joy because I know God, trust God, and love God.
 
> The standard rhetoric of a bigot citing a higher authority.  Evil things
> happen when people do this, learn from history don't repeat it.
 
You don't understand, Ian, because you're not looking for the
truth. You won't even hear the truth because you're already
convinced you're right.
 
Breaks my heart. Someday you'll know.
 
--
Rick C. Hodgin
"Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com>: Sep 17 04:49PM -0400

On 9/17/2018 4:32 PM, David Brown wrote:
> In other words, it is your personal opinion.  It is formed by your faith, not
> independent fact.
 
I used to play guitar at a local gay bar. I learned how to
play acoustic guitar because I loved the Indigo Girls' music.
My favorite artists in the 1990s were Indigo Girls, Ani DiFranco,
Melissa Ethridge, Michelle Malone, and the like.
 
I believed in homosexual relationships. My (then girlfriend,
now wife) and I used to support them, go out and hang out with
people who were gay, etc.
 
When I became a Christian, my spirit came alive, and I was no
longer dealing with only my flesh-based input. I was able to
hear and understand the teachings of God through my spirit.
 
As such, I began to realize how the flesh is deceived, and how
God's Holy Spirit teaches us truth, and how the enemy spirit
deceives us by teaching us falseness.
 
You'll never understand until you seek the truth and God draws
you from within, David. I was absolutely convinced I was right
before I became a Christian. I knew up and down, right to left,
inside and out, top to bottom, that I had it sorted out that it
was fully right to support people's beliefs, so long as they
were not hurting anyone else.
 
But I was wrong. The spirit nature received the truth from God's
Holy Spirit, and now I know the truth and teach the truth.
 
If you ever seek the truth, you'll understand what I'm talking
about then too. Until then, you'll conclude I'm a lunatic or
worse.
 
-----
You say "homosexuality is normal" because you find it in nature?
This world, the whole world, is affected by sin. It is not
natural. It is perverse, and everything here will be destroyed
by fervent heat, as will the souls of human beings who will not
hear the truth.
 
My heart breaks for you as well.
 
--
Rick C. Hodgin
"Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com>: Sep 17 05:30PM -0400

On 9/17/2018 4:49 PM, Rick C. Hodgin wrote:
> play acoustic guitar because I loved the Indigo Girls' music.
> My favorite artists in the 1990s were Indigo Girls, Ani DiFranco,
> Melissa Ethridge, Michelle Malone, and the like.
 
My favorite song from that timeframe was Ani DiFranco's Living
In Clip live version of "In Or Out."
 
I admired the lyrical composition, her poetry, the musical style.
It's an astounding piece of music for that genre in my view.
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ofWFwxpf-F8
 
"Some days the line I walk ... turns out to be straight.
Other days the line ... tends to deviate.
I got no criteria ... for sex or race.
I just want to hear your voice.
I just wanna see your face."
 
Another verse:
 
"I guess there's something wrong with me,
guess I don't fit in.
No one wants to touch it.
No one knows where to begin.
I just want ... more than one membership,
to ... more than one club,
'cause I owe my life ... to the people that I love"
 
Still, I hold that song an absolutely amazing song musically,
lyrically, fully encompassing the heart of that very style,
and especially so when you consider it was only a three-piece
band performing it.
 
But ... it is sin. What she's talking about in that song
(bisexuality) is sin. I can no longer support that kind of
music, that kind of artist. They have turned their back on
God and all of their ways lead unto death of our eternal
soul in Hell. Literally.
 
-----
I've spent many years denying myself that style by religious
rigor, even though I truly love it as a man, because I can't
find any Christian artists who sing as spirit-filled believers,
in that same style.
 
I've also learned over time that such a style of music appeals
to our flesh, not the spirit, and there are other kinds of music
that appeal to the spirit, and not our flesh. And I now pursue
those styles, and sing and perform those songs.
 
I don't even listen to a mainstream "Christian radio" here in
the U.S. A popular "Christian" station is called K-LOVE. So
many people listen to that station and sing the songs, but nearly
all of those songs appeal to your flesh, not your spirit. They
have flesh-focused music singing about Jesus.
 
There is no power in the flesh. "The flesh profiteth nothing,"
Jesus said. It is the spirit which gives and has true power.
 
I try and teach the people who listen to that music that fact,
and they shun me the same as the people here, because there
are evil spirits luring them by their flesh into that music,
into that loss of power. They do not want to step up and deny
their flesh and pursue the spirit, so they walk around weak,
impotent, unable to effect real change in their lives or the
people around them.
 
-----
It makes me realize just how patient the Lord is, how forgiving
He is, how tolerant of our weaknesses, and also how few people
there are from this world who are going to be saved.
 
Those who follow after Jesus Christ and do the will of the Father
in Heaven are the /ONLY/ ones who will be saved. The rest only
have a form of religion, and they are not saved by Christ's blood.
They will be stupefied on that final day when they are not called
in to God's Kingdom. They will proclaim and profess their faith,
but it will be for nothing.
 
Jesus even warned about us about it, and told us to "work out our
salvation in trembling and fear":
 
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+7%3A21-23&version=KJV
 
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall
enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth
the will of my Father which is in heaven.
 
Note: They called him "Lord, Lord," meaning they truly in their
hearts believed they were following Him. They thought
they were on the right path, but the work they were doing
was not the Father's work, but was the enemy's work dis-
guised as the Father's work, and they were deceived because
they wouldn't place their faith in God and trust Him for
their guidance and cues.
 
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we
not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast
out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
==> 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you:
depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
 
Jesus never knew them? How could God not "know" something or
someone? Of course He knew them as part of His creation, but
He never knew them as His redeemed, because they never truly
came to Him. They came to the enemy's look-a-like "Jesus,"
the one who tolerates sin, and follows after the desires of
the flesh.
 
-----
I leave you with another teaching, David:
 
"There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the
end thereof are the ways of death."
 

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=proverbs+14%3A12%2C+16%3A25&version=KJV
 
It was written twice in two separate chapers. Think about it.
 
--
Rick C. Hodgin
Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com>: Sep 18 09:50AM +1200

On 18/09/18 08:43, Rick C. Hodgin wrote:
> way because there are evil spirits in this world influencing
> your flesh. Take them out of the equation (which is what Jesus
> does) and you no longer "feel" the way they induce you to feel.
 
Your willingness to ignore reasoned evidence in favour of superstition
is astounding. We don't really have your kind in this part of the
world, which makes your views doubly hard to fathom.
 
 
> You don't understand, Ian, because you're not looking for the
> truth. You won't even hear the truth because you're already
> convinced you're right.
 
The truth, evidence based and irrefutable truth, is all around us. It
is called science and you should check it out sometime.
 
--
Ian.
"Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com>: Sep 17 05:53PM -0400

On 9/17/2018 5:50 PM, Ian Collins wrote:
> The truth, evidence based and irrefutable truth, is all around us.  It is
> called science and you should check it out sometime.
 
I recognize that what you say is "evidence based irrefutable truth"
being "all around us" exists ... but what I'm trying to teach you
is there's a deception at work within your flesh because of our
spiritual death, and that if you come to Jesus and ask forgiveness
for your sin, then He will take your sin away, restore you to spirit
life, allow you to then know and be guided by His Holy Spirit, which
will teach you the difference between evil spirit influence, and
truth.
 
It's new life, Ian. It's not more of the same. The old passes away
and the new life comes.
 
--
Rick C. Hodgin
"Chris M. Thomasson" <invalid_chris_thomasson@invalid.invalid>: Sep 17 02:54PM -0700

On 9/17/2018 1:36 PM, Ian Collins wrote:
>>>> On 9/17/2018 10:02 AM, David Brown wrote:
>>>>> On 17/09/18 14:58, Rick C. Hodgin wrote:
>>>>>> On 9/17/2018 5:26 AM, Juha Nieminen wrote:
[...]
> Saved from what?  The way they were created?  Sexuality isn't a choice
> if you believe it is, you are ignoring the evidence.  If you refuse to
> believe it despite the evidence, you are deluded.
 
This is probably going to sound radically sexist, however I have always
wondered why any female can find the male body "attractive"...
 
Healthy Females seem to be built like exotically beautiful, very
expensive cars.
 
Healthy Males seem to resemble heavily used dirty trucks, to me at least.
 
;^)
 
[...]
"Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com>: Sep 17 05:55PM -0400

On 9/17/2018 5:53 PM, Rick C. Hodgin wrote:
 
> I recognize that what you say is "evidence based irrefutable truth"
> being "all around us" exists ... but what I'm trying to teach you
> is there's a deception at work within your flesh because of our
 
It is that deception which makes you think something is truth, when
it is not. It's that deception which makes you believe and feel
and "know surely" that something is something, when in fact it is
not.
 
> truth.
 
> It's new life, Ian.  It's not more of the same.  The old passes away
> and the new life comes.
 
It's the division God gives between those who are perishing and those
who are being saved. All who are being saved will come out from the
world and reject the worldly ways and be saved. The rest will not.
 
--
Rick C. Hodgin
"Chris M. Thomasson" <invalid_chris_thomasson@invalid.invalid>: Sep 17 02:58PM -0700

On 9/17/2018 2:54 PM, Chris M. Thomasson wrote:
 
> Healthy Females seem to be built like exotically beautiful, very
> expensive cars.
 
> Healthy Males seem to resemble heavily used dirty trucks, to me at least.
 
It kind of sounds like some sort of pre-programmed "procreation"
algorithm in a sense.
"Chris M. Thomasson" <invalid_chris_thomasson@invalid.invalid>: Sep 17 02:59PM -0700

On 9/17/2018 1:49 PM, Rick C. Hodgin wrote:
> play acoustic guitar because I loved the Indigo Girls' music.
> My favorite artists in the 1990s were Indigo Girls, Ani DiFranco,
> Melissa Ethridge, Michelle Malone, and the like.
[...]
A noiseless patient Spider? ;^)
"Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com>: Sep 17 06:06PM -0400

On 9/17/2018 5:59 PM, Chris M. Thomasson wrote:
>> Melissa Ethridge, Michelle Malone, and the like.
> [...]
> A noiseless patient Spider? ;^)
 
I think Eternal September adds that to the posts. Either that or
a default setting in Thunderbird.
 
-----
I used go to that gay bar every week for years. I still have some
lesbian friends from that timeframe. One of them asked me to re-
place the A/C compressor and alternator on her car a few weeks back.
 
There's a part of me that misses it. I remember how amazing I felt
up on stage, playing the guitar. I remember the fun we had with all
of our worldliness, jokes about this, that, and the other thing. We
used to play Jenga at one of the tables there because we were regulars
and had a special relationship with the bar owner.
 
There's nothing unappealing about that experience to my flesh. But,
it only appeals to my flesh.
 
Since I've been born again, since Jesus took my sin away, and since
I've been able to hear and know and follow God's Holy Spirit, I have
a new voice which is louder than that one of my flesh. That new
voice doesn't want me weak in the world, doesn't want me unable to
server His Kingdom here on Earth ("thy Kingdom come, thy will be
done, on Earth as it is in Heaven").
 
This new life I'm teaching you all about ... do not take my word for
it. Please, please, please ... go to a local Bible-believing church
and ask to speak to born again Christians and ask them for their own
testimony. Ask God to guide you before you go, and to lead you to
the right people to hear the proper testimony.
 
If you are truly seeking the truth, He will do this for you.
 
--
Rick C. Hodgin
David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no>: Sep 18 08:22AM +0200

On 17/09/18 23:53, Rick C. Hodgin wrote:
> truth.
 
> It's new life, Ian.  It's not more of the same.  The old passes away
> and the new life comes.
 
Oh, I think we can agree it is a "new life" - it is a new life,
disconnected from reality and other people, from which you can sit and
judge other people for their sins (such as being born gay, or not
worshipping in the Church of Rick, or thinking that Jesus liked and
respected people, or thinking that the Bible is about love, mercy,
forgiveness and tolerance rather than hatred, bile, revenge and brimstone).
 
A "new life" does not make it better.
 
What you fail to understand is that no one wants your life. We can see
how it ruins you as a person. That is nothing to do with being
Christian - Christianity does not ruin people. Bigotry, hypocrisy,
hatred, and the weird mix of self-loathing and narcissism from
unthinking unquestioning religious zealots ruins people.
David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no>: Sep 18 08:24AM +0200

On 17/09/18 23:54, Chris M. Thomasson wrote:
 
> Healthy Females seem to be built like exotically beautiful, very
> expensive cars.
 
> Healthy Males seem to resemble heavily used dirty trucks, to me at least.
 
Sometimes people - given the choice and the money - buy expensive race
cars. And sometimes they buy trucks.
 
There is a place in this world for all sorts of folks, and all sorts of
attractions.
 
The trick, as a man, is to find a good partner before the hair falls off
the top of your head and lands on your back.
"Chris M. Thomasson" <invalid_chris_thomasson@invalid.invalid>: Sep 17 11:41PM -0700

On 9/17/2018 11:24 PM, David Brown wrote:
> attractions.
 
> The trick, as a man, is to find a good partner before the hair falls off
> the top of your head and lands on your back.
 
Cannot argue with that David! :^)
"Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com>: Sep 18 12:39AM +0100

True morality is doing what is right without the threat of divine
retribution nor the possibility of divine reward.
 
--
 
Thank you,
Rick C. Hodgin
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