- std::hexfloat - 13 Updates
- [Jesus Loves You] How'd we become so depraved? - 10 Updates
- neos - the universal compiler that can compile any programming language - 1 Update
| Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com>: May 23 04:49PM +0200 > Such limited 8-bit microcontrollers are becoming less common (as small > ARM devices take over), but the 8-bit cpu market revenue is still a good > deal higher than that of 32-bit and 64-bit cpu market, as I understand it. And is there any conforming C++-compilere for these architecutes? |
| scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal): May 23 03:12PM >> 43 years for me (PAL-D on a PDP-8 running the TSS/8.24 timesharing operating system). >Unfortunately for me, they did not have a PDP-8 at my kindergarten, as I >would have been 3 at that time! We did have access (an ASR-33 Teletype with acoustic modem, 110baud) to a Burroughs B5500 for a week in the seventh grade math class (the computer was at UWEC); got to write a simple basic program and got me hooked on programming. |
| Chris Vine <chris@cvine--nospam--.freeserve.co.uk>: May 23 05:01PM +0100 On 23 May 2019 13:27:22 GMT > >behavior because it violates the aliasing rules (6.10p8). > 6.10p8? It might have been 3.10p8, but now (in n4800) it is 7.2.1p11 > (if I did correctly guess what you intended to refer to). He was referring to the C++ standard, in this case C++17. |
| blt_vex02@pg1sawsv8i1kww2zfu.co.uk: May 23 04:13PM On Thu, 23 May 2019 16:13:30 +0200 >> I agree with blt_kt57lqEv. >Well, I don't think there is any fixed definition about what is a "high >level language" and what is a "low level language", so any discussion is Prolog or F# are high level languages. There is a clear logical abstraction between the CPU and the code. There is no such abstraction with C. |
| blt_hnb_j6r@6rpiyr.gov.uk: May 23 04:17PM On Thu, 23 May 2019 08:18:00 -0400 >> to error and not produce any output but it does - it produces assembly code >> that has a different logic to the source code. >The source code has no logic - it has undefined behavior. The only The code logic is clear - write a 1 in floating point format to a specific memory address then write a zero in integer format at the same address then return whats at that address in integer format. It couldn't be any clearer if it was signposted in neon. This isn't about standards - this is about the compiler creating assembly code that does what the C code requires. |
| jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu: May 23 11:06AM -0700 On Thursday, May 23, 2019 at 12:17:31 PM UTC-4, blt_h...@6rpiyr.gov.uk wrote: ... > return whats at that address in integer format. It couldn't be any clearer if > it was signposted in neon. This isn't about standards - this is about the > compiler creating assembly code that does what the C code requires. I'm a little confused (or perhaps you are). When I searched for code matching that description, I found that it uses "std::cout". How does it qualify as C code? It hardly matters - there's some subtle differences between C and C++ that are relevant to this discussion, but it still violates the aliasing rules in either language. That's not what either standard specifies for the behavior of your code. What they do say about such source code it that it requests the implementation to generate whatever behavior it wants to generate. If that's not what you wanted it to do, your code needs a re-write. |
| David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no>: May 23 09:21PM +0200 >> level language" and what is a "low level language", so any discussion is > Prolog or F# are high level languages. There is a clear logical abstraction > between the CPU and the code. There is no such abstraction with C. Sure, these are high level languages - higher level than C. That does not mean C is not a high level language, especially because there /is/ an abstraction between the cpu and code. It is specifically designed to be a minimal abstraction on many systems, but it is still there. |
| David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no>: May 23 09:28PM +0200 On 23/05/2019 17:12, Scott Lurndal wrote: > We did have access (an ASR-33 Teletype with acoustic modem, 110baud) to a > Burroughs B5500 for a week in the seventh grade math class (the computer was at UWEC); > got to write a simple basic program and got me hooked on programming. When I was in seventh grade (or "primary 7", as it is called in Scotland), I ran the computing department at my school. To be fair, the school had only 40 pupils and 3 teachers in total, and no one else had ever used a computer, but it sounds impressive :-) I guess being nerdy takes dedication and an appropriate use of schooldays! |
| David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no>: May 23 09:39PM +0200 On 23/05/2019 16:49, Bonita Montero wrote: >> deal higher than that of 32-bit and 64-bit cpu market, as I understand >> it. > And is there any conforming C++-compilere for these architecutes? There has been at least one C++ compiler for the 8051 since 2002, according to a quick google. (I have managed to avoid using 8051 devices myself - I think they are particularly unpleasant architectures.) I have no idea how conforming it might be (I'd be very surprised if it was close to standard). gcc for the AVR supports C, C++ and Ada. It is not fully conforming - for example, doubles are 32-bit, exactly like its floats, since 64-bit software floating point would be ridiculously inefficient in time and code space on these devices. And much of the C++ support library is missing, so no exceptions or RTTI. But the rest of the language is there. The issues under discussion here are as much C as C++, however, even though it is c.l.c++. And there are many C compilers for these microcontrollers, as well as for many similarly odd devices (though the compilers are usually not entirely conforming to standard). |
| Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com>: May 24 08:01AM +1200 On 24/05/2019 07:28, David Brown wrote: > school had only 40 pupils and 3 teachers in total, and no one else had > ever used a computer, but it sounds impressive :-) I guess being nerdy > takes dedication and an appropriate use of schooldays! If we're going all nostalgic, my school was the first (and for a long while, only) school in the county to have a teletype and modem connection to the local poly (DEC-10 and later a PDP-11) in the mid 70s. We also had an acoustic coupled modem and 10 inch monitor that, as a responsible sixth former, I was allowed to take home at the weekend :) -- Ian. |
| Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com>: May 24 08:05AM +1200 On 24/05/2019 07:39, David Brown wrote: > according to a quick google. (I have managed to avoid using 8051 > devices myself - I think they are particularly unpleasant > architectures.) Heresy! -- Ian. |
| Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk>: May 23 10:50PM +0100 > the school had only 40 pupils and 3 teachers in total, and no one else > had ever used a computer, but it sounds impressive :-) I guess being > nerdy takes dedication and an appropriate use of schooldays! "Primary 7" takes me back as I too went to school in Scotland. But back then there were no suitable computers for there to be a department. We had one week in maths class where we got to write FORTRAN code on coding sheets which were posted to Dundee. Someone keyed the program onto punched cards and ran the job on a Sperry Univac machine. A few days later you got a letter with some cards wrapped in a print-out saying something like "ABEND 67B89E". -- Ben. |
| Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org>: May 23 03:35PM -0700 David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> writes: [...] > the conversions are only valid if alignments are valid - this would, I > think, allow a system such as you describe to have longer pointers to > char (and void) than pointers to larger objects. Yes. (You're citing the C standard. I believe C++ has similar rules, but I find the C standard easier to navigate.) A pointer to an object type may be converted to a pointer to a different object type. If the resulting pointer is not correctly aligned for the referenced type, the behavior is undefined. Otherwise, when converted back again, the result shall compare equal to the original pointer. Consider a system where a 32-bit hardware address points to a 32-bit word, but a 64-bit pointer (consisting of an address and an offset) can point to any octet within any word. The C or C++ compiler sets CHAR_BIT==8, char* and void* are 64 bits, and int* is 32 bits. An int* value can be converted to char* by zero-extending it from 32 to 64 bits, with no loss of information. A char* can be converted to an int* by discarding the offset; the result is valid if the offset was zero, but the behavior is undefined if the offset was non-zero (i.e., if "the resulting pointer is not correctly aligned for the referenced type"). Code using byte addresses, particularly string manipulation, is likely to be significantly slower than code that deals with whole words. Cray vector machines (T90, SV1, etc.) are/were similar to this, except that words and pointers are 64 bits, and the offset for a byte pointer is stored in the high-order 3 bits of the 64-bit word. It's not necessary to make byte pointers bigger than word pointers because there are enough unused bits to store the offset internally. (This is/was all handled in generated code by the compiler.) -- Keith Thompson (The_Other_Keith) kst-u@mib.org <http://www.ghoti.net/~kst> Will write code for food. void Void(void) { Void(); } /* The recursive call of the void */ |
| Mr Flibble <flibbleREMOVETHISBIT@i42.co.uk>: May 23 05:21PM +0100 On 23/05/2019 02:58, Rick C. Hodgin wrote: > had never been written. > Time aids in breaking down the rebellious wails of youth. God continues > to tug at you, and many find faith later in life. Nonsense. A) Your bible is false. B) Your god the existence of which is predicated on your bible being true is, given (A), also false. /Flibble -- "You won't burn in hell. But be nice anyway." – Ricky Gervais "I see Atheists are fighting and killing each other again, over who doesn't believe in any God the most. Oh, no..wait.. that never happens." – Ricky Gervais "Suppose it's all true, and you walk up to the pearly gates, and are confronted by God," Bryne asked on his show The Meaning of Life. "What will Stephen Fry say to him, her, or it?" "I'd say, bone cancer in children? What's that about?" Fry replied. "How dare you? How dare you create a world to which there is such misery that is not our fault. It's not right, it's utterly, utterly evil." "Why should I respect a capricious, mean-minded, stupid God who creates a world that is so full of injustice and pain. That's what I would say." |
| Mr Flibble <flibbleREMOVETHISBIT@i42.co.uk>: May 23 05:21PM +0100 On 23/05/2019 03:05, Rick C. Hodgin wrote: > centralized governing (as per the federal government), hence their > use of the word "Confederate" instead of "United." > So much is lost when people forget history. And Satan invented fossils, yes? /Flibble -- "You won't burn in hell. But be nice anyway." – Ricky Gervais "I see Atheists are fighting and killing each other again, over who doesn't believe in any God the most. Oh, no..wait.. that never happens." – Ricky Gervais "Suppose it's all true, and you walk up to the pearly gates, and are confronted by God," Bryne asked on his show The Meaning of Life. "What will Stephen Fry say to him, her, or it?" "I'd say, bone cancer in children? What's that about?" Fry replied. "How dare you? How dare you create a world to which there is such misery that is not our fault. It's not right, it's utterly, utterly evil." "Why should I respect a capricious, mean-minded, stupid God who creates a world that is so full of injustice and pain. That's what I would say." |
| blt_8g6kh_@r26drnekazhnzd9yqual.com: May 23 04:24PM On Thu, 23 May 2019 17:21:18 +0100 >A) Your bible is false. >B) Your god the existence of which is predicated on your bible being true >is, given (A), also false. You have to love the circular reasoning of religions types: - The bible/koran/torah/some other book of spells is true because its the word of god. - God must exist because it says so in the bible. |
| Daniel <danielaparker@gmail.com>: May 23 10:07AM -0700 On Wednesday, May 22, 2019 at 10:05:13 PM UTC-4, Rick C. Hodgin wrote: > The southern states wanted to be more self-governing That, and to accommodate Jim Crow, bondage, lynching, second-class citizenship for blacks and segregated restaurants and cemeteries, of course. > So much is lost when people forget history. Indeed. Daniel |
| "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com>: May 23 10:19AM -0700 > - The bible/koran/torah/some other book of spells is true because its the word > of god. > - God must exist because it says so in the bible. The evidence of God existing is separate from the Bible and exists in and of itself. However, the Bible enumerates and identifies var- ious attributes of God which do exist so we can correlate what we see/ feel/believe to what He has given us as being true and accurate and right. In this way, by going back to what is written, we won't be led away by anti-Christ spirits that seek to lead us away from the truth and get us to sup at their table of lies. -- Rick C. Hodgin |
| "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com>: May 23 10:25AM -0700 On Thursday, May 23, 2019 at 1:07:36 PM UTC-4, Daniel wrote: > > The southern states wanted to be more self-governing > That, and to accommodate Jim Crow, bondage, lynching, second-class > citizenship for blacks and segregated restaurants and cemeteries, of course. Those were separate issues. However, because slavery was the fore- front states' rights issue of the day, it was the one that was moved front and center and that's what people associate the Civil War with. People also think President Clinton was impeached because he had sex with Monica Lewinsky. He wasn't. He was impeached because he lied under oath. > > So much is lost when people forget history. > Indeed. You're conflating two separate things. Slavery was evil. Even the founding fathers knew it was evil. Thomas Jefferson, who owned many slaves, wrote about how it was immoral and wrong, but it was the practice of the day. And there's a big difference between owning slaves and treating them like sub-human beings. One other fact lost to history is that after the slaves were freed, many of them went back to live with their former owners and work as employees now, rather than as owned property. The entire idea that slavery is wrong has infiltrated nearly every society in our modern world. It has been that way for move than a century now. The founding fathers wrote this: "All the… evils which men suffer from vice, crime, ambition, injustice, oppression, slavery and war, proceed from their despising or neglecting the precepts contained in the Bible." -- Noah Webster ----- the Bible doesn't guide men to do bad things. It guides sinful men to not be wicked and sinful by submitting themselves to God and fol- lowing His teachings. The reason evils exist in the world is because people DO NOT follow Him, but instead follow their own pursuits of sin. You are no exception to this rule, Daniel, because you are citing things out of context, partially factual, without providing a proper framework, designed to make the truth look ridiculous because what you present is not the truth, but only a little truth mixed in with lies, and it is that mixture of lies which make it look unpalatable. You will not be innocent before God for doing this, by the way. You need to repent and ask forgiveness for your misquotes, misleadings, and other sin. -- Rick C. Hodgin |
| Daniel <danielaparker@gmail.com>: May 23 11:06AM -0700 On Thursday, May 23, 2019 at 1:25:46 PM UTC-4, Rick C. Hodgin wrote: > The entire idea that slavery is wrong has infiltrated nearly every > society in our modern world. It has been that way for move than a > century now. You are aware that Christian Slaveholders Used the Bible to Justify Slavery? With passages such as "Servants, be obedient to them that are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in singleness of your heart, as unto Christ" -- Apostle Paul's Epistle to the Ephesians, VI, 5-7 (Here the word "servant" means "slave") Slavery was a common practice in ancient Israel, as in much of antiquity. The Biblical texts provide a legal framework for the treatment of slaves, for example, if a slave had been given a wife by his master, and were that slave to be freed, the wife and any children would remain the property of the master. > So much is lost when people forget history. Indeed. Daniel |
| Mr Flibble <flibbleREMOVETHISBIT@i42.co.uk>: May 23 07:08PM +0100 On 23/05/2019 18:19, Rick C. Hodgin wrote: > right. In this way, by going back to what is written, we won't be led > away by anti-Christ spirits that seek to lead us away from the truth > and get us to sup at their table of lies. And Satan invented fossils, yes? /Flibble -- "You won't burn in hell. But be nice anyway." – Ricky Gervais "I see Atheists are fighting and killing each other again, over who doesn't believe in any God the most. Oh, no..wait.. that never happens." – Ricky Gervais "Suppose it's all true, and you walk up to the pearly gates, and are confronted by God," Bryne asked on his show The Meaning of Life. "What will Stephen Fry say to him, her, or it?" "I'd say, bone cancer in children? What's that about?" Fry replied. "How dare you? How dare you create a world to which there is such misery that is not our fault. It's not right, it's utterly, utterly evil." "Why should I respect a capricious, mean-minded, stupid God who creates a world that is so full of injustice and pain. That's what I would say." |
| "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com>: May 23 11:39AM -0700 On Thursday, May 23, 2019 at 2:06:27 PM UTC-4, Daniel wrote: > the flesh, with fear and trembling, in singleness of your heart, > as unto Christ" > -- Apostle Paul's Epistle to the Ephesians, VI, 5-7 The original Greek with English and Strong's number references: https://biblehub.com/text/ephesians/6-5.htm The Bible records many things done by evil men, but its address is to those who are believers and how they are to be. The whole purpose of God giving man the Christian Bible is to obey Him. When a person does this, they have come to Him asking forgives for THEIR sin, and then the new spirit nature guides them from within to be unlike the world. > slaves, for example, if a slave had been given a wife by his master, > and were that slave to be freed, the wife and any children would > remain the property of the master. The type of slavery conveyed there was two-fold. First, people went into slavery purposefully to pay off debts, a type of indentured servitude where you received something up front and then worked for an agreed upon period of time to pay it off. Second, there were wicked men who owned people. The Law of Moses contains passages for how to handle all kinds of evil and wicked things. This is not because God condone them, but rather because God knows the wicked people the Earth will do sinful and wicked things, and therefore He guides His people on how to deal with those things. Remember, Jesus said in Matthew 19 that Moses allowed men to get a divorce because men's hearts were hard, but from the beginning it was not so. God meets people where they are in their wickedness, prepared to forgive them, prepared to guide them even when they are doing hor- rible things that He does not allow in His Kingdom. It is His Grace and Mercy poured out unto us, so that we can be saved, and then after being saved move further and further to be more like Christ. > > So much is lost when people forget history. > Indeed. You are so wicked, Daniel. You have a little bit of book learning and you think you understand the philosophy of God's Kingdom. You cite passages which seem to vindicate your beliefs, but you are flatly wrong in some of your understandings. If you want to know the truth you can seek to learn. If you want to espouse what you think the Bible is teaching then get a church and go and teach people, but you'll be teaching them wrong things and ALL OF THAT will be upon your own head as well as those you mislead. ----- GOD DOES NOT DO FALSE THINGS, NOR EVIL THINGS, NOR HURTFUL THINGS, NOR HATEFUL THINGS, NOR ANY WRONG OR IMMORAL THINGS EVER. God is love and light, but He is also holy and He sees things in a way man does not. Even the killing of entire populations and their children and animals, which people today say, "Well how could a lov- ing God POSSIBLY do such a thing as order the destruction of every man, woman, child, and the animals? Hoah!" How do we know God didn't forgive the sin of everyone He ordered destroyed? Everybody dies. They were wicked and unholy, but has it ever occurred to anyone thinking God is wicked for doing such a thing that He along is in control of their fate? He sent His own Son to pay the price of man's sin to set them free. How do we know that EVERYONE God destroyed in the Bible wasn't saved, such that they are now in Heaven with Him awaiting the final day for the rest of their brothers and sisters to join them? In addition, did it every occur to anyone accusing God of false things to step back and ask Him, "Why would you do this?" And not just with an accusing tone, but with an inquisitive one, wondering truly why would a God do such a seemingly horrible thing? We now know post-Pentecost the nature of the spirit life (John 3). We know that there are evil spirits in the world which confuse and flutter the flesh. These evil spirits can indwell both man and animals, and multiple of them can be in a single body (Mary Mag- dalene from whom seven demons were cast, and Legion who had enough demons inside to fill the bodies of about 2,000 pigs). Knowing NOW that evil spirits can indwell flesh, and knowing NOW the impact those evil spirits can have on a person's life (Mary Magdalene may have been the woman caught in adultery, and if so, it only took seven evil spirits to convince her the best thing she could do in her life was commit adultery which could end her life, and with Legion he was naked, crying, hiding out in the hills effectively, they couldn't contain him with chains and fetters even as he would break them asunder). These evil spirits have influence upon the flesh. We see Jesus rebuking Peter when Peter was saying he wouldn't let Jesus die, because that thought didn't come from Peter, but from Satan through Peter, and Jesus turned to Peter and said, "Get thee behind me Satan, for thou art a stumbling block unto me." If God's people were going into a corrupted land, and the people and animals there all had varying numbers of evil spirits in their bodies, then killing them would've cast those evil spirits out, and the only way they could get back in was to tempt the people of Israel to sin again, so then they would gain legal license to come back in, and had Israel obeyed God they would've remained holy and how many more of them would've remained a united nation of Israel over history rather than going into bondage and suffering loss time and time and time again? God did the same with Noah, wiping out ALL FLESH ON EARTH, except the few that were on the boat. Noah was a preacher, so God even started over there with a man of God, who would preach and teach about God, and seek to keep His commands and guidance in their lives. Noah was obedient to build the ark and it took him 100 yrs! He was faithful in what he did, but even he got drunk on the other side and we see after only a few generations how much corruption had re-entered man with the tower of Babel and ongoing wickedness everywhere. God has not done false things. He has not moved hastily or harshly or without well-established motives and purposes. He has moved with an eye down through time, through the millennia, realizing that the killing of a few thousand then could potentially save literally billions and billions and billions of lives over time in the later centuries and millennia. God has made proper choices, and when we all stand before Him and see things in the perspective of an eternal being, recognizing then how fleeting our temporal lives of flesh are here in this world, then all will know who He is and what He's done and they will each, with a loud, rousing, inspirational voice, cry out that Jesus is Lord over all, and all to the glory of God the Father. You peddle in diminishment, division, a type of cursing of God, citing that He is evil, thereby placing evil for good, and good for evil. YOU will not be guiltless on the day of judgment, Daniel, unless you repent and ask forgiveness for sin, even though it be commit- ted in ignorance and folly. You would do well to re-evaluate your life and purposes and give God the benefit of the doubt and assume HE IS RIGHT and YOU ARE WRONG and then proceed to INVESTIGATE WHY He's done what He's done. You WILL learn things if you do this and are seeking for the truth, and that truth will not only MAKE YOU FREE, but rewire your life so that you will serve Him and lead others to Christ rightly, gaining a reward for yourself in Heaven for your service to Him here on the Earth. -- Rick C. Hodgin |
| Mr Flibble <flibbleREMOVETHISBIT@i42.co.uk>: May 23 10:58PM +0100 On 23/05/2019 19:39, Rick C. Hodgin wrote: > that you will serve Him and lead others to Christ rightly, gaining > a reward for yourself in Heaven for your service to Him here on > the Earth. And Satan invented fossils, yes? /Flibble -- "You won't burn in hell. But be nice anyway." – Ricky Gervais "I see Atheists are fighting and killing each other again, over who doesn't believe in any God the most. Oh, no..wait.. that never happens." – Ricky Gervais "Suppose it's all true, and you walk up to the pearly gates, and are confronted by God," Bryne asked on his show The Meaning of Life. "What will Stephen Fry say to him, her, or it?" "I'd say, bone cancer in children? What's that about?" Fry replied. "How dare you? How dare you create a world to which there is such misery that is not our fault. It's not right, it's utterly, utterly evil." "Why should I respect a capricious, mean-minded, stupid God who creates a world that is so full of injustice and pain. That's what I would say." |
| Mr Flibble <flibbleREMOVETHISBIT@i42.co.uk>: May 23 07:07PM +0100 On 23/05/2019 07:14, Ike Naar wrote: >> return add(fib(x-1), fib(x-2)); >> } > What will fib(2) do? I could lie and say that this is a deliberate error to test the neos VM stack fault handler but I won't. :D Corrected: -- neoscript example: Fibonacci using neos.string; using neos.stream; import fn to_string(x : i32) -> string; import fn to_integer(s : string) -> i32; import proc input(s : out string); import proc print(s : in string); -- functions are pure def fn add(x, y : i32) -> i32 { return x + y; } def fn fib(x : i32) -> i32 { if (x < 2) return 1; else return add(fib(x-1), fib(x-2)); } -- procedures are impure def proc main() s : string; { print("Enter a positive integer: "); input(s); print("Fibonacci(" + s + "): " + to_string(fib(to_integer(s))) + "\n"); } /Flibble -- "You won't burn in hell. But be nice anyway." – Ricky Gervais "I see Atheists are fighting and killing each other again, over who doesn't believe in any God the most. Oh, no..wait.. that never happens." – Ricky Gervais "Suppose it's all true, and you walk up to the pearly gates, and are confronted by God," Bryne asked on his show The Meaning of Life. "What will Stephen Fry say to him, her, or it?" "I'd say, bone cancer in children? What's that about?" Fry replied. "How dare you? How dare you create a world to which there is such misery that is not our fault. It's not right, it's utterly, utterly evil." "Why should I respect a capricious, mean-minded, stupid God who creates a world that is so full of injustice and pain. That's what I would say." |
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